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Zikula, ease of use, documentation  Bottom

  • Quote

    Zikula has moved more towards developers helping developers. Zikula is just not for the average user, like Postnuke was. It's just to difficult and limited in user support and modules for the average user that just wants to get it done.


    Although I find the negativity in mesteele's tone unpleasant and unhelpful, and although I am still actively using Zikula and have converted 7 sites from PN to Z with considerable anxiety but little difficulty, and although I am committed to using and helping with Zikula going forward, I think what he says here is a legitimate criticism.

    As it has gotten better (more powerful and flexible), Zikula has definitely gotten harder for the non-coder or newbie to use, and the conversations here on the Forum look to me as if there is less activity and instruction for the unsophisticated user.

    Here is a concrete example. I am working on a site that needs to be able to host blog-like contributions by several contributors on related aspects of the electronic medical record in primary care. News won't work well for this because I really need to be able to separate these pseudo-blogs: their content is enough different that they really need different templates. Clip (nee PageMaster) is the obvious solution. The documentation makes it possible to set up several separate pubtypes with individual suitable templates. I say 'possible' rather than 'easy' because the template work does require some comfort with PHP, Smarty, CSS, HTML. But then it gets harder. Each of these should have its own rss/atom feed. This is not an unusual or esoteric request - it's pretty basic to expect to be able to subscribe to content in a content publishing module. But there is nothing in the documentation, either English or German, and there is only one thread here (mine) where I ask the question and have gotten a couple replies, but not enough for me to resolve the issue. There is a 2 year old open ticket registered for version 0.3.1. As it stands now, creating blogs with Clip (one of its obvious and stated uses) is really possible only for those with fairly robust coding skills - not for the new or inexperienced user.

    What would likely have happened in the PN era would have been:
    • Someone posts a request for help with rss for Clip
    • Several people post suggestions and include some step-by-step information aimed at beginners
    • Some dialogue ensues about the advantages and disadvantages of the different approaches
    • Someone (like me) comes along, uses the information in the thread and then either summarizes it in the thread or adds it to the documentation. (Old timers will remember that this happened with creating new forms in Formicula.)


    I am NOT criticizing folks here. I think progress is being made and that documentation is going to improve. We've been through a big stretch where there was a real moving target phenomenon for documentation. But I think that our defensiveness in response to mesteele's tone doesn't acknowledge the validity of this part of his criticism.

    Hmmm. Maybe this should have been a new thread?

    Peter



    Edited by pheski on Mar 19, 2011 - 09:23 AM.

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  • Quote

    I think what he says here is a legitimate criticism.

    I agree. Its just that this has been answered many times in the past. Again - 1.3 is coming soon. when that is done, an effort will be made to return to something like the old PostNuke days where the main download will be a distribution that includes many modules and is ready 'out of the box'. Work is being furiously done to make sure that important modules are ready for this transition. My frustration with the argument is that it has been made and answered several times previously.

    Quote

    Here is a concrete example. I am working on a site that needs to be able to host blog-like contributions by several contributors on related aspects of the electronic medical record in primary care.

    Ok - but the problem here is - that *isn't* a simple example. icon_smile I'll guess there isn't a CMS in the world that can do what you are describing *in an easy way* (in fact, I would bet most couldn't do it at all). Something like you explain is very complicated and frankly, most people have to pay a developer to do such things. The mere fact you are considering the possibility of doing it with Zikula speaks to Zikula's flexibility and ease! ironic icon_eek icon_smile

    No CMS is perfect and Zikula is no exception. Certainly, it could be easier, better, faster, more well documented, etc.... Certainly it would be better if there were more modules, more themes, more developers, etc... but WHO can create that? seriously - how do we solve that problem? we can't materialize people out of thin air, they have to show up because they like what they see/use. If more 'newbies' show up because the product is easy to use 'out of the box' that doesn't add more devs. Devs show up because the product is easy to use from a developer's standpoint. And I am living proof that this is getting easier and better (see my github log). Patience people, patience.
  • As to the module availablilty hindering possiblities, http://www.peopleschurchvancouver.org Done with, I believe about 5 modules, pretty feature rich, sure there's no photo gallery and no forum on the site, but we know they exist for 1.2, if not perfect, at least there, and both items are hopefully being worked on for 1.3 I know the media library module idea is out there, and that should translate in to a Gallery fairly easily.

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  • craigh

    I think what he says here is a legitimate criticism.
    I agree. Its just that this has been answered many times in the past. Again - 1.3 is coming soon. when that is done, an effort will be made to return to something like the old PostNuke days where the main download will be a distribution that includes many modules and is ready 'out of the box'. Work is being furiously done to make sure that important modules are ready for this transition. My frustration with the argument is that it has been made and answered several times previously.


    I hope you are correct. It was a sad day when Zikula only distributed the core, and dropped the support for the modules. The only way that Zikula will see an increase in usage, and support will be to include the most common used modules and maintain them internally. It's just a fact that developers come, go, and lose interest. Not only are the end users hurt by this, but so is the core project.

    For me it's too late. Upgrading past 1.2.x is not going to be an option. I paid $700 the last time I had my theme updated. With Durpal it's less than half that to convert my theme.

    Zikula 1.3 is a new beginning, so hopefully the core development team can get it right again, and it's usually going back to the roots, in a lot of cases.
  • $700 to update a theme ? Unless there was new graphic work involved that sounds very high.

    In any case, this topic has drifted so far I would almost ask the OP to start the thread over, or had an admin move most of this to a new topic.

    Ah, for the days of Usenet and threaded discussions.
  • Quote

    I hope you are correct.

    http://blog.zikula.org/Blog/Update-about-Zikula-130.66.html
    That point has been made over and over. you don't need to 'hope'. (wow, it's been almost a year since that post... icon_wink )

    I agree you totally overpaid for a theme upgrade. updating your theme again should be easier from 1.2 -> 1.3. Paul Stewart has done most of the base themes already (http://code.zikula.org/themes)
  • ccandreva

    $700 to update a theme ? Unless there was new graphic work involved that sounds very high.

    In any case, this topic has drifted so far I would almost ask the OP to start the thread over, or had an admin move most of this to a new topic.

    Ah, for the days of Usenet and threaded discussions.

    There was no new graphic work involved. it's supply and demand, like anything else. There are only a handful of capable, and reliable programmers that are available for Zikula. It's not just theme work, but module development that costs a small fortune.
  • Quote

    Ok - but the problem here is - that *isn't* a simple example.
    I didn't say it was simple, I said it was concrete.

    Quote

    I'll guess there isn't a CMS in the world that can do what you are describing *in an easy way* (in fact, I would bet most couldn't do it at all). Something like you explain is very complicated and frankly, most people have to pay a developer to do such things. The mere fact you are considering the possibility of doing it with Zikula speaks to Zikula's flexibility and ease! ironic.


    No argument from me. At times of frustration over the last six years here I have looked with and played with some other CMS options and I always come back. yes

    I agree that being able to create with a free module several independent pubtypes with their own styles and permissions to allow different individuals/committees post about their work on a large project is awesome and complex. The module does this really well. And that part of the task is basically completed. The documentation is pretty decent but could use some improvement (and I am contributing as I learn) for the places where one leaves the beaten path.

    The problem is not that there is no module to do this complex task. There is. The problem is that someone with 6 years experience here and some coding skills (let alone a newbie) is stumped by the last step: creating feeds from the pubtype.

    I don't think that the specific dilemma of creating feeds from a pubtype is as big a task as you imply. The News module automagically creates directories and files for its RSS and Atom feeds and links as part of its install. It seems to me that it should be possible to do the same in Pagemaster with an option one invokes after creating a pubtype. (My coding skills are not enough to do this, so it is certainly possible that I am underestimating the complexity of the task, in which case someone should step up and say that it is big time tough to create an RSS or Atom feed from a PageMaster pubtype. icon_smile )

    I have started the outline of how to do it (as I understand the task) in the Clips Wiki, in case someone feels like adding to it.

    I am perfectly willing to pay to have this done for me. I have no idea how much time/money would be involved, but if someone is interested in the task (Atom and RSS feed from a pubtype), please feel free to send me a PM with what you would expect to be paid.

    Peter



    Edited by pheski on Mar 19, 2011 - 12:48 PM.

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