Zikula Community

• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Dec 12, 2010 - 05:40 PM

  What is it going to take to get Clip to a point where it's usable on a production site? Every update seems to be broken and I'm wondering if it will ever be "finished".

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• rgasch
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 05, 2003
  • Last visit: May 28, 2010
  • Posts: 776

  Posted: Dec 13, 2010 - 04:23 AM

  Quote

  Every update seems to be broken and I'm wondering if it will ever be "finished".

  
  That may be the case but you are aware of the fact that you are inquiring about a software package which is written against Zikula 1.3 which itself has not been released yet? Calling it RIP seems a bit premature.
  
  Greetings
  R

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• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
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  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Dec 13, 2010 - 03:15 PM

  actually I only used "RIP" because it rhymed. I very much like to rhyme.
  
  And I think the only reason it's written for 1.3 is because it's taken so long. It should have been released for 1.2.x
  
  Remember, this is a sponsored project where an amount was set and that amount has been raised. Money has changed hands, software has not.

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• rgasch
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 05, 2003
  • Last visit: May 28, 2010
  • Posts: 776

  Posted: Dec 13, 2010 - 08:01 PM

  Quote

  Remember, this is a sponsored project where an amount was set and that amount has been raised. Money has changed hands, software has not.

  
  OK, I wasn't aware of that. Anyhow, I'm sure Matteo will come through, he always does
  
  Greetings
  R

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• espaan
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Aug 23, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 1428

  Posted: Dec 13, 2010 - 08:22 PM

  Isn't pagemaster 042 is the way to go for zk12x or did I miss something ? I can imagine that it is hard to test and develop for Clip and zk13 when it is not functioning out of the box
  
  --
  campertoday.nl, Module development, Dutch Zikula Community

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• rgasch
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 05, 2003
  • Last visit: May 28, 2010
  • Posts: 776

  Posted: Dec 13, 2010 - 10:34 PM

  Quote

  Isn't pagemaster 042 is the way to go for zk12x or did I miss something ?

  
  AFAIK yes, this is the currently valid combination of versions. I know that some people want Clip because it supports relations, but since clip hasn't been released yet, this should be considered to be unsupported. If it works, great! If not, wait for a proper release.
  
  Greetings
  R

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• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 03:02 PM

  espaan

  Isn't pagemaster 042 is the way to go for zk12x or did I miss something ? I can imagine that it is hard to test and develop for Clip and zk13 when it is not functioning out of the box

  
  
  I think you're missing the point. If the development that was paid for was done in a timely manner, there would be a fully functional version for 1.2.x already. 0.42 isn't ready to be used on a production site and is missing many features.
  
  

  rgasch

  AFAIK yes, this is the currently valid combination of versions. I know that some people want Clip because it supports relations, but since clip hasn't been released yet, this should be considered to be unsupported. If it works, great! If not, wait for a proper release.

  
  
  "Wait for a proper release"? I've been waiting for FAR too long.

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• Guite
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 19, 2003
  • Last visit: Apr 06, 2010
  • Posts: 442

  Posted: Dec 14, 2010 - 10:57 PM

  Slightly off-topic: maybe you can also use ModuleStudio to achieve your custom setup.
  
  --
  Guite | ModuleStudio

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• nestormateo
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Sep 06, 2006
  • Last visit: May 09, 2010
  • Posts: 2446

  Posted: Dec 15, 2010 - 02:56 AM

  Darryl
  without Zikula 1.3 and the Doctrine support, the implementation of the Relations would be a real pain... reimplement the wheel is not a way to go, and from my point of view, the things happened at the "right" time. Not as soon as expected but all the advances made on the 1.3 Core, let us to have now the relations working and keep the module simple and maintainable.
  
  Without that, the module could die anytime after its release.
  So, please be patience with us (Core and Clip) that we won't disappoint you.
  Greetings
  
  --
  - Mateo T. -
  Mis principios... son mis fines

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• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Dec 17, 2010 - 01:42 PM

  So, you're saying that Clip could not have been done ages ago?
  
  Also, are you saying that this doctrine support issue is a good reason to stop development all together?
  
  Here's the bottom line, a group of us decided that a Pagesetter replacement was required for our businesses to continue. An amount was set for the replacement to be created, that amount has either already been paid or promised. When asked for a payment, it took me all of 3 minutes to complete the transaction. I'm still waiting for what I paid for and it's costing me thousands of dollars and lost clients.

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• Wendell
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 10, 2010
  • Last visit: May 18, 2010
  • Posts: 165

  Posted: Jan 01, 2011 - 12:25 PM

  So..... anyone out there? What's going on with Clip? Or even Zikula 1.3, for that matter. What's the status? Nothing is happening.
  
  Several of us have been willing to pledge funds to finish Clip/Zikula 1.3. I had a monthly subscription that sent donations to the Foundation in hopes that it would spur development. I wasn't the only one, plus a lot of money was pledged toward finishing them. I have since canceled my donation subscription simply because of the stagnation. At this point, after many false promises and lack of development (mainly on Clip), I can't see myself starting up a donation subscription again. I'm afraid my money is going into a black hole. Basically what I'm saying is that I would be willing to pay money to see Clip finished, but I'm not going to pay it up front because there's nothing showing me that it will ever be finished.
  
  I've threatened to move on to some other system many times, as some of you may know. The promises of Zikula 1.3 and Clip seemed really great and I decided to give it one more chance. I tested them many, many times in anticipation of completion with the idea that I would happily send money, whether it be a lump sum or a percentage of profits because I saw the great potential. Zikula 1.3 is impressive to say the least and the only thing missing for me is a completed Clip (and of course the final release of 1.3).
  
  Alas, Zikula seems nearly done, yet Clip sits stagnant. Messages from the developer promise more rapid development, yet the last indication of any activity was a month ago. I cannot continue on with empty promises. Unfortunately, this last chance that I gave to the Foundation to come around apparently falls on deaf ears. It's the same old crap as before and I'm now kicking myself for wasting all this time in anticipation for years. I could have easily learned Drupal CCK or WordPress Pods or even some commercial application by now that would handle my needs and handle them well. Hell, I could have hired someone to develop a custom CMS by now and it would have paid for itself simply from the sheer number of clients I have waiting in line for the features that Zk 1.3/Clip promised.
  
  Oh well.
  
  I'm off to Borders now to find a Drupal book.
  
  --
  

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• nestormateo
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Sep 06, 2006
  • Last visit: May 09, 2010
  • Posts: 2446

  Posted: Jan 01, 2011 - 01:11 PM

  Sorry to hear that...
  
  My january is scheduled to complete Clip, and it seems that I will need to cancel my family trip for that, so please don't ask me to be coding hard in the middle of december 24 and 31.
  
  I'll do my best from now,
  you'll see my commits and I hope to get feedback on what's left for the first Clip release.
  
  --
  - Mateo T. -
  Mis principios... son mis fines

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• drak
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2001
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 624

  Posted: Jan 14, 2011 - 06:13 PM

  I'd like to clarify a few things here because there is not only misrepresentation, there is omission of facts and distortion events.
  
  1. Clip's release cycle is tied to Zikula 1.3.0 - and always has been. It's been said multiple times in public. Since Zikula 1.3.0's API has not been frozen, it means that changes to Zikula 1.3.0 Core can, and have broken other 1.3 modules in development. This situation has stabalised somewhat but until it freezes there is no guarantee that a working Clip will work with the latest Core build.
  
  2. There have been substantial pledges for Clip development but much *much* less in terms of concrete payments. The assertion that people have 'paid for work' and that is has not been delivered it at best, misleading. Maybe this was said to get some shock factor.
  
  3. Clips development has been separated into 5 milestones. They were, 0.4.2 - a Zikula 1.2 working version of PageMaster, 0.9.0 - a replacement for Pagesetter's relational features plus import and to be *released after Zikula 1.3.0*. The remaining milestones are post Zikula 1.3.0 release and will focus on the bells ans whistles. You can view the milestones here: http://code.zikula.org/clip/roadmap
  
  4. Mateo has been working on the module steadily and thoroughly. Yes there have been gaps, and yes sometimes, he's disappeared for a few weeks, but overall, it is the Zikula Core development (for which I am responsible for delaying) that is the holding factor. To blame Mateo for delays is just not correct. No stable Core means no stable Clip, end of story.
  
  5. Clip has undergone massive internal transformation - this will allow the module to not only work with the new Zikula 1.3.0 Core, but also will make future development and maintenance of the modules much more easy - this is a big break from the maintenance problems we have experienced with Pagesetter, which while brilliant, was almost impossible for others to maintain. While you might not care about that aspect, if it's ignored, a module will eventually rot because the effort required to fix even small issues or add even small features becomes too complex and time consuming and the result is nothing get's done.
  
  The Zikula Foundation is quietly supporting this entire project financially (including Clip) and is supporting two other modules quietly in the background too. Making dishonest aspersion here and there are not particularly helpful, nor is it encouraging for others. That you might have contributed a few hundred dollars does not give you the right to make such a ruckus. I know the motivation is just to make some noise, shake the barrel and hope some fish jump out, but this is NOT the way to behave. I have pumped tens of thousands of dollars into Zikula over the years without the help from anyone - that's my hard earned dollar and not once do you hear me scream and shout like you guys are doing. The Zikula Foundation has supported this project legally and financially over the years without any large song and dance - you should do the same.
  
  As has been explained thoroughly in the roadmap and various other documents the Zikula Foundation will become much more visible and active on the community side when we have stabalised our core and distribution. Until then, we are going to focus on what we planned, Core, Clip and distribution since these depend on each other.
  
  I appreciate your frustration, but I've also been clear that the Zikula project will not be dictated by individual's personal interests. Our code base has been littered with small amendments to suite people's small needs without thinking of the greater picture and we've been paying for that for a long time. I more than anyone want the Core to be released yesterday. It will be released soon, we're going to know exactly when a beta can be released early next week. That's a promise.
  
  As for Clip, the Core appears unlikely to break it again and Mateo has been finialising the final tickets recently. You can see the timeline here: http://code.zikula.org/clip/timeline
  
  You may download the latest Core here: http://ci.zikula.org/job/Zikula-1.3.0/
  And the latest Clip here: http://ci.zikula.org…les/job/Clip-0.9.0/
  
  Regards,
  
  Drak
  
  --
  Zikula Lead Developer
  Board Member of the Zikula Foundation
  Follow me on twitter.com/zikuladrak

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• Wendell
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 10, 2010
  • Last visit: May 18, 2010
  • Posts: 165

  Posted: Jan 15, 2011 - 08:11 PM

  Well, as I've said, I can't pledge money for something that's not showing any progress. Would you give money to someone that seemed flakey (at best) and you had no idea what the hell was going on? Not likely.
  
  Doesn't matter anyway. I've just finished my third installation of Drupal 7, with everything I need and so much more than even Pagesetter ever had.
  
  Sadly, I only found this thread here because a friend linked me to it. I haven't been here for quite awhile and probably won't be for a long time to come. I'm sad that it has taken this long for me to figure out that I could have jumped ship eons ago and learned Drupal as easily as I have in only a couple of weeks. But it also saddens me to see how awesome Zikula 1.3 is but I simply can't use it because there's little to no support for it otherwise.
  
  Good luck.
  
  --
  

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• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Jan 18, 2011 - 05:37 PM

  I too have found what I need elsewhere.
  Good luck in the future Zikulans.

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