Zikula Community

• dreamingmonkey
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Nov 25, 2007
  • Last visit: May 30, 2010
  • Posts: 166

  Posted: Jun 23, 2010 - 06:50 PM

  I'm crazy busy working on websites for clients across Chicago. I try to steer my clients toward Zikula because I'm far more fluent in this API than I am in the other CMS options out there. In my experience, we have a superior system. The API is more mature. The development roadmap makes sense. Zikula is a quality product. But 9 times out of 10 my clients specifically ask for something else. So I spend a great deal of my time working with what I consider inferior systems and billing my clients far more than they should have to pay because it takes me 3 times as long to implement solutions for those.
  
  This got me thinking about things and I decided to pop into some of the other CMS community sites. They're kicking our butts in forum activity and just about every other visible metric of community life. We have some great developers working their tails off to make Zikula great, but there is virtually no community left.
  
  Personally, I think (always have) that the re-branding was a huge mistake. Forum activity is WAY down since the new name. But that shouldn't be that hard to overcome. And now the community is plowing ahead toward a new release that is going to make a huge number of very popular 3rd party modules unusable and there really aren't a whole lot of people around to fix them. And from what I've seen, there are a whole lot of us who don't plan to upgrade to the next major release. I suspect that it'll be a forking point for the community. There are going to be a whole lot of people who still rely heavily on older modules that they don't have time to bring up to compliance and we'll all just sort of stick with what works, patching as we need to ourselves.
  
  So might I humbly suggest that maybe it's time to shift the focus from plowing ahead to the next major release and take some time marketing this thing. We need to get the community moving again so we have enough people contributing 3rd party code to make upgrading to the next major release feasible. As it stands, by the time we get out of beta there might be a dozen modules really ready to go.
  
  And on an unrelated but equally frustrating note, for the love of all that is good, will someone please write some decent non-Ajax fallbacks so that when I come to this site I can disable javascript? The Ajax here is horrible. It makes Facebook look like they know what they're doing. It's pretty and all. Makes for a slick interface. But when the box I'm typing into refuses to resize to fit the content I'm typing it makes communication difficult. Again, probably not good for building community. Frustrate the users too badly and they'll walk away. So maybe it's time to choose practical over pretty until the bugs get worked out.
  
  Anyway, that's my rant. I love Zikula. I'd love to see it become a thriving project again. And given the pace of the core development, you'd think we're right on track. But I have to say I think we're speeding toward a brick wall here.
  
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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Jun 23, 2010 - 07:33 PM

  The main thing we're "doing wrong" isn't so much something we're doing wrong, but rather something we're not doing, and that's evangelizing the product in the larger arena. I will, from time to time, go on Sitepoint.com, and I will search out the CMS discussions, and I will introduce Zikula in to the mix, but if you search for Zikula, you'll see, I'm the only one bringing it up. Engage in the wider audience webmaster/developer/design forums. I'm waiting for 1.3, but I'm planing on trying to write some stuff for a few of the sites out there that do tutorials, like NetTuts, maybe Sitepoint & Smashing Magazine. Problem is, to pitch to all 3, I have to figure out how to make three versions of the same basic article, make them different enough to be acceptable as unpublished, yet still cover basic premises.
  
  I disagree with your point on the re-branding, this is a new project, it is not PostNuke, it's capable of producing a feature compatible heir to PN, but it's no longer the same beast, the change was necessary, and long planed to happen at a 1.0 release, even before the fork that spawned Xaraya. The stagnation of the forums has little to do with the re-branding and refocus, and more to do with the stagnation of the project prior to the re-branding.
  
  And finally on the push to 1.3, again, it's a hard necessity. Yes, we may loose some people as we go, but really, if the modules are not going to be upgraded to 1.3 compatibility, do you want to put your faith and trust in them at all? If they're dead, then they're dead, if they're alive, they'll be updated.
  
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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Jun 23, 2010 - 07:45 PM

  Oh, and I also agree, Ajax should be able to be disabled on a per-user basis. Even if it's a per-module as well.
  
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• quan
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: May 07, 2006
  • Last visit: May 28, 2010
  • Posts: 124

  Posted: Jun 23, 2010 - 11:01 PM

  Quote

  ... but there is virtually no community left.

  
  
  I agree with this statement. There are many developers working for the core and for many 3rd party modules but this is not as visible in the community as it should be. There is not as much "life" in the community and inside the forums as it should be.
  I think it is very important for everybody to see how active and living a community is. But this is very difficult because there are various communication channels: the forums here, national community forums, mailing lists, waves, Skype group chats, an irc channel... For articles we have the news system, we have a blog (what's the difference BTW?)...
  This is too much in my opinion and we should try to reduce the places where communications take place and move them into the public "space" that is accessable by everybody.
  
  Some weeks ago I had a customer asking me some questions about zikula. One question was the activity of the community. Of course they say to themselfs that a system used by a (visible) active community is better for their projects because there are many users that need a future for this system. This is not as visible for zikula as it should be. Ok, it is a little bit better now but some months ago we almost had noactual / new news published. When I take a look into the national forum (the german for example), we had many new posts per day some years ago. Because of the expansion of the communication channels the communication went down... and this is what the potential user can see.
  
  What we are doing wrong here (or what we are not doing here) is IMHO:
  a) we should move more community life into the public community here and reduce communication channels
  b) we should offer more service for (potential) users to stay up to date about community life without contraining them to read waves, forums, mailinglists, rss-feeds, news, ... (why don't we offer some newsletters that includes the latest articles and / or forum posts?)
  c) we should enlarge the community with networking functions to increase interaction between the users here
  d) we should take care that 1.3 is not a forking point. I agree with this point. I know lot of pages that still use 1.1 or 1.0 (or even PN) because updating is a problem [mostly because of the incompatibility of many modules to the stable versions]). I cannot understand that known bugs are just planned to be fixed in 1.3 but not in 1.2.x. 1.2.x is stable and should be fully supported.
  
  Just my 2 cents if somebody is interested in my opinion...
  
  Flo
  
  
  
  Edited by quan on Jun 24, 2010 - 12:02 PM.
  
  --
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• pheski
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Feb 27, 2005
  • Last visit: Apr 18, 2010
  • Posts: 1577

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 02:07 AM

  I suspect that there are a fair number of folks like me out here in Z-community land.
  
  One of the reasons I opted for PN back in the day was the vibrant user community available to help solve problems. A collection of things seem to have disrupted this:

  • A series of upgrades, major and minor, from .75 on, with some glitches and complications of the upgrade process. Having to be a serial upgrader is a PITA.
    
  • Not all popular modules were upgraded in a timely manner, and some not at all. This is huge. Only a small number of PN-Zik users are capable of recoding old modules. Only a small number of PN-Zik users are in a position to maintain a test environment where they create a back-up, upgrade that, and test module function. If you want non-dev users, you need a non-dev product. It is a very strong disincentive tostarting to use a product if it appears that modules will not be available after upgrades.
    
  • The forum was rendered nearly useless for an extended time by the broken search function. I think this is not mentioned often enough or recognized as a major contributor. Yes, there were work arounds, but a work around is - by definition - a barrier. LLBean knows better than to tell its customers to look for LLBean products 3 blocks away from the store!
    
  • Some fractionation of communication channels. While I understand the value of Wave for dev collaboration, part of the richness when I started was the ability to eavesdrop on dev conversations, and learn. Separating the two groups has down sides.
    
  • Lack of robust documentation.
    
  • Lack of marketing. (Though I agree with the concern about marketing a product that will frustrate the ordinary user.)
    

  
  
  I'm not coder enough to participate as dev, but was pretty active here on the forum trying to help the least experienced/skilled 35% and had planned to dive into doing documentation. I started doing some videocasts and was enjoying it - but my timing was terrible. That was at the time that Zik was changing so fast that my work was obsolete before I finished, so I put it down. I'm playing with 1.3 and considering trying again, becasue it looks as if things might settle down a bit.
  
  My suggestions:

  • documentation
    
  • Make sure that there is a robust collection of modules that are upgraded when the core is upgraded.
    
  • documentation
    
  • Have an easy to find and read chart of modules, the versions with which they work, and with comments about migration to alternative modules
    
  • documentation.
    
  • Task force to work on scripts to migrate data into current modules from legacy modules that are being left behind.
    
  • Ducumentation.
    

  
  
  Did I mention documentation?
  
  PN was a great product. Zik, by comparison, is friggin awesome. But, 'build it and they will come' only works in fantasyland. It needs to be easy to understand and use, well documented, with active forum and searchable archives, and with sense of confidence that not just the core, but modules and data will move forward.
  
  Peter
  
  --
  Peace
  ______________________________________
  The commonest cause of problems is solutions.

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• remmingtonshowdown
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 22, 2004
  • Last visit: Apr 03, 2010
  • Posts: 451

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 02:24 AM

  Heya all,
  
  I'll keep this short and caveat by saying that I've been a devotee since .7.2 or earlier...
  
  Zikula is perhaps the most powerful and capable product for developing advanced web apps. It's a developer's dream. It however is a user's worst nightmare.
  
  Right now it seems that Zikula is for developers, a tool we use to create web sites and web apps for our clients...
  
  Perhaps it's time that Zikula's target audience is identified. Is it developers working for clients? Small business people looking for their own DIY solution, casual users who want a web space...?
  
  Those are all valid targets and perhaps Zikula can be for all, but that will require a reassessment of how Zikula is delivered, the presence it has and how people are introduced to it.
  
  I don't really have THE solution... but perhaps there needs to be a part of the dev team that specifically focuses on the experience of meeting Zikula for the first time... To readdress the website (what a mess) and the documentation (no video walk throughs?) etc...
  
  Oh and though it's a slight tangent... the separate and disparate international communities sites are a terrible idea; to segregate the community of developers and users does nothing to foster a community...
  
  -Julian
  
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• Wendell
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 10, 2010
  • Last visit: May 18, 2010
  • Posts: 165

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 03:40 AM

  My understanding is that after 1.3 is out and some third-party modules are tweaked and updated, there will be some marketing efforts. I like to think that 1.3 is the "real" Zikula 1.0 at this point.
  
  --
  

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• bronto
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: May 07, 2010
  • Posts: 507

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 04:28 AM

  I think the developers should focus their communications here on the forum. The google group and wave are invisible to most people. There's more of a community than is apparent.

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• jaenosjelantru
  
  

  • Rank: Moderator
  • Registered: Mar 15, 2005
  • Last visit: May 30, 2010
  • Posts: 1077

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 06:17 AM

  Every single thing said here resonates with me; Peter's statements the most.
  
  I hope that the roadmap below is still the plan, particularly the "Changes to the Zikula Project" section:
  
  Zikula Roadmap

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• drak
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2001
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 624

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 07:31 AM

  Nice to see an open and passionate thread. I've a few spare minutes so let me give some official light to the matter:
  
  The plan has always been:
  
  1. Release Zikula 1.3.0.
  2. Prepare all the modules we use for the distro (work in progress).
  3. Release distro.
  4. Promote Zikula.
  5. Focus efforts on module development - since from Zikula 1.3.0 we should finally have a reliable, modern and stable and maintainable framework. Work will continue on the core, but it will be much more about adding features and usability (like inbox upgrades and module installs for example) - stuff that can be added on without disrupting other things.
  
  Core developers remit have already been expanded to help with module development. In the same way there was a huge drive from core development with the whole Gettext stuff for 1.2, the same will occur (and is in fact has already started) for modules for Zikula 1.3.0. The Zikula Foundation is already pushing the first module out the door, Pagemaster 0.4. From Pagemaster 0.9 (next version) this module will be a pretty awesome piece of kit!
  
  Regarding documentation. Once great difficulty between releases was to work out what had changed release to release. We are now documenting directly in SVN: Changelog, Upgrading for developers (tells in minute detail about API changes and refactoring required). There are also example modules and so on - look at the docs/ folder, it's becoming quite impressive. At the moment it is designed to for the basis for more complete documentation that can be written by any volunteer.
  
  I also intend (as I have been doing already), to shoot many screen casts, and I hope others will take my lead. Show and tell works extremely well. I have a bunch of things waiting to be released when the time is right.
  
  We are also introducing a self service KnowledgeBase module to the community website. The module has already been written but we will not introduce it until after Zikula 1.3.0 is released. Shortly after this we'll open source that module too. This will take a great deal of pressure away from forum moderators since repetitive questions can be fed into the KB. After this, we'll introduce the TroubleShooter, another self service module - I'm sure you've seen such things - they work wonders. This module is currently under development.
  
  We will also move towards markdown format to generate documentation directly from a version control repository - the huge benefit it that it allows the documentation to be version specific and easy to maintain - way easier than with the Wiki.
  
  I am sure you all understand that documentation is not something we can properly embark upon until after Zikula 1.3.0 is released, obviously. For the same reason, we cannot promote Zikula until we have something which is user centric and works out of the box, i.e. the distribution/
  
  We now have a heaving development team since I changed the policy from an elite and rather untrusting circle to opening the door and inviting as much talent as I could find. We have around 16 developers of which 10 are regularly active. This is why Zikula 1.3.0 is looking so great - we've got some really talented and enthusiastic developers on board. You appreciate, all this takes time, but we have a plan, and we're following it.
  
  Overall, I'm pretty stoked about the progress. If you want to know what's going on, everything (almost - we use a lot of IM's too so that is not public. IRC is not practical) is out in the open. Look at the Zikula discussion group at Google Groups, or search for 'with:public zikula' in Google Wave. We're out in the open but then we also keep try to be efficient at collaboration which means more code, and less talk. We are using the tools that work for us collaborating so please do not try to force the issue of how we should communicate - we communicate and collaborate according to what is efficient for us as a working team with a reasonable amount of transparency because this is what works for us. The forums are here for support and general community - it is not a collaboration tool.
  
  So in summary, I hear what you are all saying, and we really are listening - but much of this is old news. So in the end, I am sure you can understand, these things take time, and logically, certain things have to happen in a specific order. We're a little late on our schedule, but hey, it's really been worth the wait. There are a whole bunch of good things happening in the background - have a little patience, I promise you, everything will work out just fine an dandy.
  
  Regards
  
  Drak
  
  --
  Zikula Lead Developer
  Board Member of the Zikula Foundation
  Follow me on twitter.com/zikuladrak

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• Kaik
  
  

  • Rank: Freshman
  • Registered: Dec 30, 2006
  • Last visit: Apr 20, 2010
  • Posts: 58

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 09:22 AM

  Hi
  Communication channels hmm is good to have them - there are ways to promote Zikula on the world.
  Other question is what to do with the people who came here, how introduce them world of Zikula? So they actually feel like they want to stay here for a while...
  
  

  Quote

  Pagemaster 0.4. From Pagemaster 0.9 (next version) this module will be a pretty awesome piece of kit!

  
  
  Hmm I'm hardly? using pagemaster 0.4 on MojeCoventry.pl I have changed few things few functions what I'm waiting is new realise and I hope it will support user access to own, not published, publication;)
  
  Love Zikula
  Thx to all dev
  
  --
  rgfdgafgaf

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• Wendell
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 10, 2010
  • Last visit: May 18, 2010
  • Posts: 165

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 03:00 PM

  I have to say, since starting with PN in 2002, I cannot ever remember a time when there was as much positive, effective and worthwhile change than there is now. Drak has taken this project from almost dead and is effectively turning it into a viable project that will play with the big boys one day soon. I've waited a long time for the project to really step up to the plate, and with 1.3, I see that happening.
  
  Drak has assembled an awesome team. While the user numbers may seem low, a visit to the Zikula Core timeline at the Cozi shows you just how much developer activity there is. Zikula is alive!
  
  --
  

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• pheski
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Feb 27, 2005
  • Last visit: Apr 18, 2010
  • Posts: 1577

  Posted: Jun 24, 2010 - 03:19 PM

  @Wendell ~>
  
  I agree absolutely with the progress and positive change bit, and that Drak deserves huge credit, along with the revitalized dev team.
  
  But I don't subscribe to 'build it and they will come.'
  
  --
  Peace
  ______________________________________
  The commonest cause of problems is solutions.

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 05:28 AM

  And Wendell's low post count, for anyone new, is a sign of how sincere he is on that page, wasn't long ago he departed our company here, frustrated with the project. That he's come back, and this enthused is a good sign for the project as a whole. :)
  
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• goexplore
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jan 27, 2006
  • Last visit: Apr 30, 2010
  • Posts: 17

  Posted: Jun 25, 2010 - 07:01 AM

  My 2 cents:
  
  1. Backwards compatibility needs to be improved. Every single upgrade I have done has taken hours or days of combing through PHP code and database to fix or workaround major and minor problems. Of all the Postnuke sites I had setup, only 1 made it to Zikula because of compatibility. It was just too hard for non-developers to make the leap or reposition with modules and themes that worked or might work on the new version. Those Postnuke sites all went elsewhere, static HTML, Google sites, whatever.
  
  2. You need to "push" the word out and not depend on people to come here looking for info about Zikula. Email news to all the registered users when it happens, when there is a new blog entry, maybe monthly list of new modules. Most people are too busy and too distracted to periodically check in to see what is going on looking for something that is relevant to them. You build community and participation by reaching out to people, not by building it and hoping they might come.
  
  Evan
  (started using postnuke in 2006, not going to upgrade anything unless mGallery is going to work)

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