Zikula Community

• rallek
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Apr 23, 2005
  • Last visit: May 15, 2010
  • Posts: 130

  Posted: Nov 13, 2009 - 11:55 PM

  I'm a little bit confused about our communication ways of Zikulaans.
  
  Today the following is available:
  

  • the forum here
    
  • national forums (for me the german one)
    
  • google groups
    
  • irc channel
    
  • some Skype contacts
    
  • and now google wave

  
  
  Now I try to sort out what is for what:
  
  The forum here:
  this is the standard way to ask for support. No support on all other ways. Right?
  
  national forums:
  The national forums should be available to support the non english speaking users. It is an addon of the international forum. Right?
  
  google groups
  Where is the difference with our forum? I have difficulties to see this. Most of the discussed topics should be discussed inside our forum, because all support discussions are at one place and searchable. In the past, it was used for development discussion. But that seems to be moved to google wave (see later). In my point of view, we should stop that. Right?
  
  irc channel:
  just to talk to other zikulaan. It is more or less a public channel for personel networking. Support request should be moved to the forum. Right?
  
  skype:
  Skype is more or less the same than irc but not public. you need to be invited. Thats more an private networking channel. There you can ask your friends for help. And as I've learned this works well, if you know some developers. But it is only for a small part of the community. And a lot of knowledge about problem solution get lost. So we need a kind of policy here: If the discussed point is important also for others, than move the discussion into the forum here. Right?
  
  google wave:
  what a hype! more than 50 zikulaans already trying out the beta of the newest toy of google. My first impression, this tool is nearly perfect for developers to discus a specific topic. This kind of colaboration speeds up the discussion of "how should we develop this or that" in a perfect way. But wave is not usefull to give support or to develop a personel network inside the community. If we define this tool as a development tool for Zikula, i can agree with this. Right?
  
  I want to bring up this discussion, to be shure, not to get lost in the forrest of information...
  Do I going right with my classification? What are you thinking about this?
  
  --
  webmaster of gvoh.de and pggo.de
  
  project manager of new module media repository

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• drak
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2001
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 624

  Posted: Nov 14, 2009 - 01:37 AM

  I think this is one of those things where popularity will be the deciding factor. Based on what I have seen so far: For example for brainstorming and planning, Wave can be excellent. For instant messenger not so - Skype/GTalk continue to be used.
  
  Time will tell... no efforts in the past 8 years to mould communication mediums have worked so far.
  
  Be interesting to see what happens over the coming weeks.
  
  Drak
  
  --
  Zikula Lead Developer
  Board Member of the Zikula Foundation
  Follow me on twitter.com/zikuladrak

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• rallek
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Apr 23, 2005
  • Last visit: May 15, 2010
  • Posts: 130

  Posted: Nov 14, 2009 - 01:42 AM

  I think most important is to have a clear policy around the world for all helpers:
  
  If someone asks for support, we have to guide him to the forum (international or national if nonenglish speaker) and not to answer outside.
  
  All other communication time will tell, thats true.
  
  --
  webmaster of gvoh.de and pggo.de
  
  project manager of new module media repository

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Nov 14, 2009 - 10:06 AM

  Why can't we pipe the Group to the forums?

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• slam
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: May 03, 2004
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 511

  Posted: Nov 14, 2009 - 11:20 PM

  I do not see the point pushing even more all support to the forums, and also do not think there should be a strict policy. I have seen support being done by those who where willing in Skype, in the IRC and in the mailing lists. Yes, we should forward support requests to the forums in general, as they provide a fine way to keep solutions archived for later access, but prohibiting voluntary support elsewhere is the wrong way.
  
  I think we should give all those communication/collaboration tools their place, as the people who use them have their reasons, which are often not understud by those who do not. Some examples:
  
  Mailing Lists are - together with the forums - perfect for those with (temporary) limited internet access and/or older hardware, who want to stay informed and contribute. They often cannot use Skype, and definitely will be unable to use Wave.
  
  IRC is preferred by those who care for secure communication and file up-/download, and who want to use their own client software for chatting. One can even chat via IRC from the CLI, which comes handy if you work on headless servers.
  
  Skype does have a big user base (specially among Windows users), and those who prefer to use it always tell us that it is the most easy to use tool for communicating.
  
  Wave is not just a hype, but really a new way of collaborating while communicating. This is of course more of value for developers, but less interesting for "normal" users.
  
  Gtalk/Jabber/MSN/ICQ/AIM/Yahoo/etc. - all those are used, and all those have their advantages. Most of them again can be used with your preferred client software, letting you use all the protocols inside the same GUI.
  
  Greetings,
  Chris
  
  --
  an operating system must operate
  development is life
  my repo

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• pheski
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Feb 27, 2005
  • Last visit: Apr 18, 2010
  • Posts: 1577

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 12:01 AM

  slam

  I do not see the point pushing even more all support to the forums, and also do not think there should be a strict policy. I have seen support being done by those who where willing in Skype, in the IRC and in the mailing lists. Yes, we should forward support requests to the forums in general, as they provide a fine way to keep solutions archived for later access, but prohibiting voluntary support elsewhere is the wrong way.
  
  snip...snip
  
  Greetings,
  Chris

  
  
  I like the idea of the support happening primarily in the forums, because:
  

  • It is easier to look in only one place for information;
  • It is archived and searchable; and
  • It is familiar (and I am an old dog and beginning to suffer from hardening of the categories).

  
  That said, Zikulans will use what best suits Zikulans, and it seems to me that trying to dictate how a community will develop or communicate is bound to be an exercise in futility.
  It might be worth having a page about 'How to talk Zikulan' where the various communication channels are listed, described, and some instructions on how to use them (or links to instructions) to make it easier.
  
  --
  Peace
  ______________________________________
  The commonest cause of problems is solutions.

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• kaffeeringe.de
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Sep 03, 2002
  • Last visit: May 09, 2010
  • Posts: 909

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 03:42 AM

  1. I agree with slam, that it's not nescessary to enforce a strict policy: If someone has a question we should try and answer, no matter which medium is being used. But we should also ask him to better use the forum.
  2. As pheski said, the forum is low-barrier, central, searchable, open to everyone
  3. Wave is nice for collaboration if you regard several rules. But the problem I see at the moment is, that things are again discussed in closed circles and results aren't being published.
  
  --
  best regards from Kiel, sailing city
  
  Steffen Voss
  
  Member of the Zikula Steering Committee
  Read The Zikulan's Blog "If you want people to RTFM, make a better FM!"

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• rallek
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Apr 23, 2005
  • Last visit: May 15, 2010
  • Posts: 130

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 04:03 AM

  Quote

  But the problem I see at the moment is, that things are again discussed in closed circles and results aren't being published.

  
  That is exactly the reason why I raise up the discussion here. For shure it is not possible to limit support on what ever information channel. If you find somebody who is helping you, you are fine.
  But nothing is wrong to say: Support place is "normaly" the forum. That is the same way as we are strict in using the ticket system on Cozi. Very often I can read "please write a ticket at Cozi" Thats absolut ok, But it also happens, you are talking in a chat to a developer and discuss some dificulties. This are leading in code change sometimes (without a ticket). Exactly the same way we should go with support.
  
  Summary: Nothing is forbidden, but support is normal given at the forum. Thats ok?
  
  --
  webmaster of gvoh.de and pggo.de
  
  project manager of new module media repository

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 02, 2010
  • Posts: 1208

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 06:42 AM

  Wave sucks. Questions and answers get lost in the mess. Now imagine if you had several waves for different topics... this could easily become hundreds of different waves and you can bet that 90% of them would not stay on topic.
  
  If the search feature here at the forums was worthy, the forums would by far be the best place to store support topics IMHO. As it is now, you can't really use the search feature because it often doesn't find stuff that is related to your search, yet sometimes it does. However, searching via Google and adding "site: community.zikula.org" works great.

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• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 09:53 AM

  http://en.wikipedia.…ne%27s_own_dog_food
  
  and that's all I have to say about that.

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• drak
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2001
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 624

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 01:49 PM

  kaffeeringe.de

  3. Wave is nice for collaboration if you regard several rules. But the problem I see at the moment is, that things are again discussed in closed circles and results aren't being published.

  
  
  This is not entirely correct, Waver's can search with:public zikula in the Wave search bar.
  
  Drak
  
  --
  Zikula Lead Developer
  Board Member of the Zikula Foundation
  Follow me on twitter.com/zikuladrak

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• pheski
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Feb 27, 2005
  • Last visit: Apr 18, 2010
  • Posts: 1577

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 02:16 PM

  1. Having two places to search is about twice as much work as having one place to search.
  
  2. Can 'non-wavers' search or find any content in Waves? I would assume not, in which case, some of the discussion is, in effect, happening behind closed doors. If the collaboration piece is good (I don't know, not a Waver, no invitations, guess I'm not in the in crowd, wonder what Gene Shepherd would say?) then the trade off seems reasonable for developers to discuss development. But not so good for support or general discussions.
  
  P
  
  (Edit: what;s with the datetimebrief?)
  
  
  
  edited by: pheski, datetimebrief
  
  --
  Peace
  ______________________________________
  The commonest cause of problems is solutions.

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• drak
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2001
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 624

  Posted: Nov 15, 2009 - 03:02 PM

  I don' think anyone ever suggested Wave was a general support channel, it is not, nor could be due to the nature of what Wave is (by design). This thread started as a 'how do we communicate' in general, not what are the support channels.
  
  But since it has come up, I want to address the topic of support because this was a feature in the roadmap document. We will be changing the whole way user's experience support. The channels will become the following:
  
  1. Self service Knowledge Base and Trouble-shooter
  2. Community forums
  
  Anyone who has been involved with professional support services will know knowledge bases work exceedingly well, and the customer is able to get an immediate answer to most questions. When it doesn't the forums would be the next port of call. Those giving support are able to create KB articles and questions that fit the very things that are asked most. KB statistics also feed back into the project because the most viewed questions hint to what could be make easier or better documented.
  
  Those giving support here in the forums will finally get a rest from repetitive questioning and should improve the atmosphere in general for everyone. The forums can also become a place of community interaction and allow us to reduce the number of forums which are way too many.
  
  We are missing a native KB application, there are other commercial solutions which we may employ until we have such an application. At the moment we are busy with back end systems to support the new translation system and finalising documentation on the matter. Changing the support channels will come soon.
  
  Regards,
  
  Drak
  
  --
  Zikula Lead Developer
  Board Member of the Zikula Foundation
  Follow me on twitter.com/zikuladrak

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