Zikula Community

• storms
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2002
  • Last visit: Jun 20, 2009
  • Posts: 7

  Posted: Jun 18, 2009 - 09:20 PM

  I guess this post might be deleted as the leadership probably would hate to admit to the fact of a Zikula fading away into the history. But this is not all critic, and look upon it as constructive critic.
  
  I was early a postnuke fan back in 2003 and have built many sites based on postnuke. I was active in the community and the future for postnuke was bright. On some days there were hundres of threads in the forums.
  
  Anyhow. As normal is, ppl grow apart. Conflicts arises etc etc... Some got out starting their own CMS and some was frozen out. I early warned about this. In a freeware like postnuke/Zikula the program should be the organization and not the ppl. Ppl will come and go. Some passes sadly away to the other side, some just go tired and some will just be fired. But some ppl, see them self as the "owners"/organization. There is always a personal motive. Either you just love to program, or share or you are driven by the idea of making money out of it.
  
  I early noticed that some of the core ppl had financial motives. Either as asking for donations to server, promoting servers (affiliate) or similar. When re-visiting Postnuke, now found to be named Zikula my first attention was drawn to all the "hire pro" links. And by all means, I think making money is a good idea.... but it should not be the main focus, and for sure not a visible focus. You can achieve the same goal without need for extensive advertising, it is just a matter of logistics.
  
  My professional background is from international marketing, and I would claim to be a fairly good programmer as well. I raise this topic of a few reasons, one of course as a tribute to the old postnuke and another reason is trying to give a helping hand for something that clearly is fading away.
  
  First of all. You should never have changed name. Changing a brand name is the most complex operation any organization/firm can do. And for a 100% internet media, even worse.
  
  Postnuke was a major player in CMS. It had an enormous amount of external links. These links was build and positioned in search engines over the years. Many still are... When converting you should allways keep a historic backdoor open. The postnuke.com should still live. With active links to zikula. Loosing/operating postnuke.com as it appears today is a disaster. Even worse is the problem related to migration from postnuke -> zikula.
  
  How much is left of the postnuke usergroup? 10%???
  
  But history is history.
  
  You should try to get back postnuke, or if any of you hold it. Use the page properly to promote Zikula.
  
  Since you loose on all fronts. Having second to none international language packs for zikula and thirdparty module builders have passed over to other CMS's. You should aim your focus on marketing for awhile. Rebuilt the messy startpage. Ease everything down to simplicity. And make it usable with other major free programs like phpBB. 80% or more of all your users like to have a forum. For some odd reason you chose to go for a self made version highly unknown and appreciated the good will of a few persons.
  
  Spend some time on easing up zikula page, and use some effort on the integration of phpBB, and you might survive. I cannot see other solutions. You will bring back users and fill you private pockets with more money.
  
  Further more, if you manage to stop the falling trend, you should consider as a suggested so many years ago to form a proper organization. All your income should go into this organization and you should pay salaries to your staff, even reward great module builders. Having a proper organization will enable you to seek funding, and I think you still can get some. Google will for sure sponsor a good idea. And having a million zikula based pages running google ads will be good business for them...
  
  I hope you all can see were your headed. A look at the amount of daily posts in the forum tells you something about the activity.
  
  I hope it all is not lost due to a few persons having the idea that they somehow "owe" Zikula.
  
  I hope you can turn this into a positive shift, and that the changing of name can help you end all the former postnuke problems with new and better core.
  
  For all it is worth I wish you the best
  
  Jim
  
  aka
  
  StormS
  
  
  
  edited by: storms, Jun 18, 2009 - 09:25 PM

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• kreisliga-alemao
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Oct 16, 2007
  • Last visit: Dec 09, 2009
  • Posts: 15

  Posted: Jun 18, 2009 - 10:23 PM

  I must admit that some of your thoughts are mine, too.
  But i see that zikula is in deed a better system than postnuke was.
  Although there is a lack of modules it is by now possible to create new sites easyly with Zikula.
  
  As you i'm concerned about zikula fading away. What is date of the last news on ziklua.org? and the last post on blog.zikula.org.
  If you have a look on code.zikula.org you will not find many projects that are very active. Even the frequency of submits to the core is far less than it once was.
  
  I always hope that developers work on their projects offline, so that there is movement i just can't see.
  This would mean that someday the frequency of new module-releases could explode. But i don't know it.
  
  I will continue using Zikula because it is the system i know best and i consider as the best for my needs. But i'm really scared that i have to look for another Framework someday because Zikula could fade away completely.

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• slam
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: May 03, 2004
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 511

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 01:22 AM

  Well, we are a free and open source project, nobody "owns" it. Everyone is welcome to join contribute. However, telling those who actually do something what you think they should do is not just not motivating, but also useless in such an open source project. I would suggest to rethink your ideas, and start helping us to make Zikula better.
  
  Spreading the myth of "Zikula fading away" is definitely no help at all.
  
  Greetings,
  Chris
  
  
  
  edited by: slam, Jun 19, 2009 - 02:23 PM
  
  --
  an operating system must operate
  development is life
  my repo

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• bronto
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: May 07, 2010
  • Posts: 507

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 04:04 AM

  The team has done a phenomenal job of evolving postnuke into what it is today. The name change was a necessity and you'd know it if you'd ever tried to sell it. Seriously, a first time poster (as shown in "Posts:1" at top as of this moment) saying this is proof enough that it's not credible. Do you even know what Pagesetter is, and how many "modules" you can easily create with it? If there is to be a shift in strategy, it should NOT be towards marketing, it should be towards finishing and releasing Module Studio.
  
  Please, spend some time and develop some sites with it before you open your mouth again.

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• storms
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2002
  • Last visit: Jun 20, 2009
  • Posts: 7

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 04:53 AM

  Slam,
  
  Why should I re-think. I gave some suggestions after giving some minor arguments upfront. Neither is it a myth, it is just looking at stats. Look at the download rates. Look at the posting rates... It is always better to face the challenge and the fact as it is, instead of trying to cover it by smooth talks. I raised the topic because I liked postnuke, and thereby I like the base and idea of Zikula. I guess you rather see me checking in a next year when it might only be you left to answers posts.
  
  Bronto,
  
  The team has made a good job in regards to the framework and upgrade of code. Especially some of the graphical work has improved a lot. But I've been around for 7 years in this forum, building lots and lots of pages over postnuke. I made applets, modules, plugins, themes you name it. I think I stand on solid ground. Meanwhile I've seen the other CMS grow to fantastic sizes. Evolving day by day, not after a year or two. The large userbase does that.. makes thing grow.
  
  Another thing you do say: "The name change was a necessity and you'd know it if you'd ever tried to sell it." That does tell a bit about the core motivation. I'm a professional marketer, and I can tell u straight up that once again that a name change is the most complex thing to do. At least with a brand. And postnuke was and still is a brand name. Zikula might be, if you manage to get user back. But as is many of them goes to Joomla, which in my opinion is a fork/derivation of postnuke ( mambo ).
  
  I've used Pagesetter and still uses it. But you will find that good modules like PagEd also misses the frequent updates missing.
  
  If you did your homework well bronto, you would find that I've made more than the one post stated in the forum. It is prolly the same set of issues saying you is registered 31.12.69.
  
  I've had this argue before and I know where it will go. I just hope to be surprised.
  
  But however you turn it. You might get a bear on your yearly meetings ;)
  
  Regs
  
  StormS

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 02, 2010
  • Posts: 1208

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 05:25 AM

  I have been using PostNuke since 2003 as well. I've even served on the team for a short while. I've also posted in previous discussions similar to this one and participated in PN-bashing.
  
  That said, my views about Zikula have changed over the years. While I may agree on some of your points, I also understand where the team stands -- they do what they can when they can because Zikula is not their day job. They maintain Zikula on their own time, for free, and often without any kind of thanks or appreciation.
  
  Zikula is what it is. To me, it is the most powerful CMS/framework available, once you get your head around it. Add Pagesetter (and now pgForm) and you have something nobody can beat. I realize much of it is very technical and not necessarily geared to the masses, but I like it that way. If it were built for the ultimate in ease-of-use for every person out there, regardless of web abilities, it would lose the power and flexibility it has now.
  
  There are a lot of opinions on how Zikula should be marketed, developed and used. I have learned to just go with the flow and when I need something, I can usually find help in the forums. And when I can, I try to help others when I see questions I can help with. Even if there isn't a direct solution to my questions, I know that there is a very powerful code system for which I can build upon -- yeah, I may have some learning to do to make it happen, but that is good for all of us because hopefully that will help me help someone else in the future.
  
  So brush the chip off your shoulder and lighten up. It is what it is. Deal with it.

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• storms
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2002
  • Last visit: Jun 20, 2009
  • Posts: 7

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 06:06 AM

  Wendell,
  
  You pointed out one issue IMHO very important issue, that I addressed in the first post. "Zikula is not their day job."
  
  That is why I suggested a proper organization form, that might enable some of them to actually have zikula as their primary job.
  
  The thing is. Many programmers start of head on in their early 20's. Making modules that work for the current CMS version. They work night and day and just love to give support and keep on making it better as they learn both the CMS and coding better. Many have a hard time to let other into it, as for this CMS it self. Then life catches up with them. They get a girlfriend, kids, longer days at work or just go tired. Then everything halts... the modules get update maybe once a year. Then you see all the forks popping up, ppl getting tired of waiting. Then you see the fight over code rights and all bashing and hashing on the forums for those being for and against... Then the CMS reaches a new release and all code has to be rebuilt... many have hacked their sites so that it is impossible to upgrade.
  
  and so the days go by.
  
  The introduction of Smarty made all CMS 10 times better. Now the code is standalone, and easier to maintain. It seems like Zikula has found a very nice platform. But where are the users? Where are the block and module builders? Well, you will find them being the core ppl, often, and fair enough, asking for payment for making modules work. Or selling the most popular modules. The one you really need for your site.
  
  We can go on for ever. But it is, as you say, as it is.
  
  It is to bad that history forgets, and even faster at the web. So much good work and good hours spent.
  
  Time will tell. I just raised my hand in the classroom having the teacher answering, even tho I thought it was a group session ;=)
  
  
  StormS

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 02, 2010
  • Posts: 1208

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 06:35 AM

  Quote

  But where are the users? Where are the block and module builders?

  
  Honestly, I think many people left when the big jump from PN to Zikula occurred. Many probably just didn't want to learn a new system. Sadly, I think they may be mistaken in their thinking that Zikula is more difficult because of all the new code. I'd say it is quite the opposite -- it's more developer-friendly and even more user-friendly. The problem seems to be more about the perception people have that a new name and a new code base means more complexity, when really it is the opposite.
  
  So I think what we are seeing is the initial "shock" of the "new" system. It really isn't that new for the average user. As a web designer (mostly), creating a theme in Zikula isn't that much different than creating a theme in PostNuke. The actual construction of the theme really isn't much different and the Theme module will convert old themes to the new version for me. If anything has changed in a major way, it's that I have more options and flexibility available to me.
  
  Anyway, my overall point is that I understand where you are coming from. At one time, I felt the same way as you and I often wondered why nobody seemed to care about things. But now I have "matured" into realizing that they are providing me, a web designer, with an incredible tool that I can mold into anything I want it to be. I may not agree with all the choices made and I may not necessarily even appreciate some of the things that are said by certain people, but it won't keep me from using Zikula and appreciating what is provided to me at no cost.
  
  And you are right, we could go on about this forever. As always, I hope that the team will look past the negativity that is often posted here and see the true issues behind them in a positive light. It seems that they get a LOT more negative comments (including from myself) than they do positive ones. We all need to remember that positive comments go a long way too.
  
  
  
  edited by: Wendell, Jun 19, 2009 - 10:37 AM

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• kreisliga-alemao
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Oct 16, 2007
  • Last visit: Dec 09, 2009
  • Posts: 15

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 06:37 AM

  I regret my first post in this thread and hope the team will forgive me.
  It was not intended to degraded the hard work many people put in Zikula.
  It turns out that posting in foreign languages is hard to learn.
  
  So i try to say what i mean, short and as clear as possible:
  
  I'm thankful for every little line of code someone wrote for Zikula.
  I'm thankful for every hour someone gave to this project.
  
  I hope that my impression is wrong and Zikula will stay the great piece of software it is and that it will not fade away.

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• rgasch
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 05, 2003
  • Posts: 776

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 07:03 AM

  Quote

  Well, you will find them being the core ppl, often, and fair enough, asking for payment for making modules work.

  
  
  I don't think any coredev has ever asked someone for money in order to fix a bug. They might not have had time to work on your issue, but asking for money to fix bugs is not something that we do around here. At least I don't ever recall seeing it happen ...
  
  

  Quote

  Or selling the most popular modules. The one you really need for your site.

  
  This is probably aimed at people like me, since I do http://www.zwebstore.biz. My perspective on this is as follows:
  

  • I spent 3 years working on the core for countless hours, without getting paid for it. As a result of this (and the efforts of other core developers) Zikula is now, from a software engineering point of view, a vastly better system than PostNuke was. Developing modules, if you know how to program object-oriented code, is now a breeze.
    
  • During this time I have contributed to a large number of core and non-core modules, helping people where I could in order to make PN/ZK a better and more functional system.
    
  • I spent several years working on large eCommerce implementations and thus learned what it takes to build such a system. If well done, these are not trivial/small systems. This was a module which was missing from PN/Zikula so I started writing zWebstore. I had the option to release the module for free or to charge for it.
    
  • With eCommerce being a serious application, which demands support and regular upgrades + some life changes which occurred shortly before I started writing zWebstore, I opted for the commercial road. This allows me to make some money of the module and provide the type of support that customers expect.
    
  • You should note that zWebstore is a large module (800KB object logic code, 800KB template code, 200KB main module code) and represents about 6 months of programming effort. It is designed to be highly flexible and to be usable in a large-scale, professional setting. It is simply not feasible to create such a system and then give it away for free while still providing good support, documentation, etc. At least I currently can't afford that.
    
  • I think that Zikula (as a product and software ecosystem) is better of with a serious and up-to-date eCommerce module, even if it's not free, than not having such a module. Other people are welcome to write a free eCommerce module, but you'd be surprised at the requirements large corporations have for their eBusiness systems; zWebstore attemts to address this.
    

  
  
  These are my thoughts on the matter. You may not agree with me, but I think all of us here who contribute to Zikula do so with a good amount of dedication and love. If you have ideas for marketing Zikula, let us hear them, but be prepared that you will be asked to contribute time and expertise rather than just ideas. Ideas are easy, making something of them is the hard part.
  
  Greetings
  R

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• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 07:27 AM

  Robert's way of getting paid for developing free software should be duplicated as much as possible.
  
  I find Zikula to be way to european-centric where the attitudes tend to be more plodding. If it's going to grow, the growth needs to be in North America, then we'll see things start to happen.

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• rgasch
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 05, 2003
  • Posts: 776

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 08:08 AM

  Quote

  I find Zikula to be way to european-centric where the attitudes tend to be more plodding. If it's going to grow, the growth needs to be in North America, then we'll see things start to happen

  
  In that case, pick an area which you think needs improving, assemble a team which shares your vision and start fixing/building things. Unless you're doing something very weird, the coredev group will be glad to have your contribution. If you're building a module, it might not make it into the core, but that does not mean it can't be wildly successful (see how popular Pagesetter is even though it is not in the core).
  
  Greetings
  R

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• storms
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2002
  • Last visit: Jun 20, 2009
  • Posts: 7

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 09:29 AM

  rgasch,
  
  Nothing is better than getting paid for hard work, good ideas or just been clever. I really think payments are the way to go even for free CMS, it is just a question how the payments are received.
  
  No matter what. The amount of return is determined by several factors, and one of them is userbase. If you have a module designed for zikula, it will allways depend on the way zikula evolves.
  
  Everybody in this tread and all other readers and users will benefit of a growing zikula use.
  
  Why should a module be free? In my opinion there is no good reason, it should be up to the module developers to choose. All I says is that things are connected to each other. Dependencies....
  
  Why have many freewares become large moneymakers? Because if you get the user base you become attractive. Growing numbers do the magic. A new trend I've seen beside the original " donate" is integrated commercial as a part of the user license. By using a module you agree to letting the developer run a minor ad somewhere in the module. That will generate cash as long as the module is in use. Being for free increases the chance of extended use.
  
  There are so many ways to the same goal. One is the inbuilt support button. When you are in the module admin you will allways be exposed for the "support button" which will lead either to email or options, which is paid support.
  
  And so on, and so on... so many possibilities.
  
  But what I wanted to single out, is that the framework might be as good as heaven or even better. But if the actual use of it is stalled by the lack of wanted modules, it will not reach the mainstream user group.
  
  My best advice, no matter what, is to establish a organization. A legal one. Apply for funding at different sources. Allocate all donations, commercial and affiliate income into the organization and turn it professional by paying salaries to core ppl and also reward module builders.
  
  I did notice, and have seen it before, ppl asking if donations and other income could be accounted for.... what if the tax authorities ask the same one day? It is also ethical questions in regards to whom benefiting from a free CMS...
  
  I cannot emphasis how much I wish Zikula a bright future. So look behind what you call bashing and argue the arguments. Even tho I might be very wrong it might wake up some engagement or ideas.
  
  StormS

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• craigh
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Jun 16, 2003
  • Last visit: May 29, 2010
  • Posts: 1966

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 09:41 AM

  storms

  My best advice, no matter what, is to establish a organization. A legal one.

  
  perhaps you are unaware of the Zikula Software Foun… Steering Committee?
  
  

  storms

  If you did your homework well bronto, you would find that I've made more than the one post stated in the forum. It is prolly the same set of issues saying you is registered 31.12.69.

  
  This I don't understand. It clearly says you now have a whopping four posts. Who are you if you have been here for years? under what username? help me do my homework please. My dog ate mine last night.

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• craigh
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Jun 16, 2003
  • Last visit: May 29, 2010
  • Posts: 1966

  Posted: Jun 19, 2009 - 09:43 AM

  storms

  I cannot emphasis how much I wish Zikula a bright future. So look behind what you call bashing and argue the arguments.

  Great! where can I download or buy your modules/themes/plugins?

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• rgasch

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