Zikula Community

• dks
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Feb 07, 2003
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 404

  Posted: Jun 22, 2009 - 03:08 PM

  satorian

  Hello everyone!
  
  Two modules makes Drupal the best CMS in the OS world. It's CCK and Views. Does Zikula offers similar features?

  
  
  Does Drupal have anything like Pagesetter? No?
  Epic Fail.

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• robertgarrigos
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 26, 2003
  • Last visit: Jul 24, 2009
  • Posts: 3

  Posted: Jul 22, 2009 - 11:17 PM

  Quote

  Does Drupal have anything like Pagesetter? No?

  
  For what I read here (http://community.zik…b-tid-3-pid-105.htm), Pagesetter has features included in Drupal thru various modules like CCK and Views indeed.
  
  

  Quote

  Drupal seems to be written in the kind of code that Zikula (back then PostNuke) had about 3-4 years ago.

  
  not quite:
  
  

  Quote

  1) There is no templating system. PHP and HTML are mixed throughout the output-generation code.

  
  of course there is. At the time of your posting and years before: http://api.drupal.or…api/group/themeable
  
  

  Quote

  2) there is no database abstraction layer (ie: queries are constructed manually and thus hardcoded into the code)

  
  there has been an absctraction layer since the beginning: http://api.drupal.or…pi/group/database/6
  http://api.drupal.or…api/group/schemaapi
  
  And it's getting better and better.
  
  

  Quote

  3) there doesn't seem to be much in terms of generic system code that can be reused by a module.

  
  http://api.drupal.org/api/group/hooks/6
  http://api.drupal.or…r/topics/oop.html/6
  
  

  Quote

  Backward compatibility:
  The worst point of Drupal. Too many core changes per version brokes a lot of stuff

  
  There is a reason for that: http://drupal.org/node/65922
  
  As Dries said once: Preserving backward compatibility often requires that you drag historical baggage along, and in interpreted languages like PHP, this comes at a significant performance cost. So it was decided that we can break people's code, but not people's data.
  
  I don't know the Zikula project. I will donwload it right now and test it, so I wan't say much about it. You shouldn't talk either about what you don't know.
  
  We'll become better thru the exchange of knowledge and collaboration, nor thru misinformation and fighting.

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• craigh
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Jun 16, 2003
  • Last visit: May 29, 2010
  • Posts: 1966

  Posted: Jul 23, 2009 - 02:47 PM

  Well thought out arguments. I hope that you will take a serious look at Zikula. I believe it has many strengths. Since I have not used Drupal, I couldn't make a fair comparison. Certainly, Postnuke/Zikula has always made it a priority to maintain backward-compatibility as much as feasible and this has slowed down and complicated development somewhat. Maybe Dries has a point

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• rgasch
  
  

  • Rank: Team Member
  • Registered: Jan 05, 2003
  • Posts: 775

  Posted: Jul 24, 2009 - 01:16 AM

  Quote

  
  

  Quote

  Drupal seems to be written in the kind of code that Zikula (back then PostNuke) had about 3-4 years ago.

  
  not quite:
  

  
  
  Maybe not quite but close ...
  
  

  Quote

  
  

  Quote

  1) There is no templating system. PHP and HTML are mixed throughout the output-generation code.

  
  of course there is. At the time of your posting and years before: http://api.drupal.or…api/group/themeable
  

  
  
  That is not a templating system. It is an API which looks quite similar to what PN had with pnHTML. While it may work well, I think the Postnuke community discovered the hard way that this is not the best way to go.
  Also, if you look at the template files Drupal uses, it's just HTML mixed with raw PHP code. A short example:
  

  Code

  <div class="poll">
    <div class="title"><?php print $title ?></div>
    <?php print $results ?>
    <div class="total">
      <?php print t('Total votes: @votes', array(\@votes' => $votes)); ?>
    </div>
  </div>
  <div class="links"><?php print $links; ?></div>

  
  I would not call this a template system. It's just HTML with PHP.
  
  

  Quote

  
  

  Quote

  2) there is no database abstraction layer (ie: queries are constructed manually and thus hardcoded into the code)

  
  there has been an absctraction layer since the beginning: http://api.drupal.or…pi/group/database/6
  http://api.drupal.or…api/group/schemaapi
  
  And it's getting better and better.
  

  
  The schema-API you refer to seems to be geared towards schema manipulation. If you compare this to what DBUtil offers, it is quite different. If you look at Drupal code, you see things like:
  

  Quote

  
  $existing = db_fetch_object(db_query("SELECT status FROM {system} WHERE type = '%s' AND name = '%s'", 'module', $module));
  

  
  While there is nothing really wrong with this, compare this to the Zikula core where you won't find any manually generated SQL anymore. Everything is generated dynamically by DBUtil through calls like
  

  Quote

  
  $objectArray = DBUtil::selectObjectArray ('tablename', $where, $sort);
  

  
  
  
  

  Quote

  
  I don't know the Zikula project. I will donwload it right now and test it, so I wan't say much about it. You shouldn't talk either about what you don't know.
  

  
  
  You are right, I don't know much about Drupal, my comments were derived from a short glance through the source code. However, as I tried to indicate above, I still believe that my comments were basically correct.
  
  

  Quote

  
  We'll become better thru the exchange of knowledge and collaboration, nor thru misinformation and fighting.

  
  Certainly. It was never my intend to spread misinformation. If you truly do think that that is what I did, please reply to my post and offer your corrections.
  
  Lastly, I wish to point out that it is not my intent to say anything bad about Drupal (or any other project). Drupal is alive and well, serves a large user base and as such certainly has done some things right. Like I said in my original post, if it works for you, great. I just think that Zikula has some nice technical features that Drupal lacks.
  
  Greetings
  R

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• robertgarrigos
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 26, 2003
  • Last visit: Jul 24, 2009
  • Posts: 3

  Posted: Jul 24, 2009 - 04:07 AM

  Quote

  Like I said in my original post, if it works for you, great. I just think that Zikula has some nice technical features that Drupal lacks

  
  
  Drupal may lack some nice technical features, indeed. Drupal is not perfect, like everything. However, I believe it has achieved a good combination of (maybe other) nice technical features which are, in fact, making it a powerful and flexible system which work not just for me but for a big community AND many big sites and companies.
  
  In any case, my intervention here wasn't to say how good is Drupal compared to any other system but trying to clarify what I though it was a misinforming post. And you still do: zikula's template files are full of HTML code mixed with some other code.
  
  

  Code

  <div class="ic-floatleft">
      <!--[if $pncore.InterCom.messages_allowhtml eq 1]-->
      <div class="ic-formrow">
        <label for="html"><!--[ pnml name="_IC_DISABLE_HTML_ONTHISPOST" ]--></label>
        <input type="checkbox" id="html" name="html" value="1" <!--[if $html eq 1]-->checked="true"<!--[/if]--> />
      </div>
      <!--[/if]-->
      <!--[if $allowsmilies eq 1]-->
      <!--[pnmodfunc modname=bbsmile func=bbsmiles textfieldid=$textfieldid]-->
      <!--[/if]-->
    </div>

  
  
  Drupal happens to use, as default, PHP mixed with HTML but can use Smarty, also, for instance. I call this a templating system, just like zikula's.
  
  But as you said, I use what servers better my needs.

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• bronto
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: May 07, 2010
  • Posts: 507

  Posted: Jul 24, 2009 - 05:11 AM

  I'll chime in, since I'm the one the originally started this thread.
  
  The code you reference above is pnRender, which is just Smarty with square brackets rather than curly braces. pnmodfunc is a custom pnRender(Smarty) plugin. Zikula can make use of PHP in the templates too, but I've seen little need to.
  
  How much of the Drupal templates are Smarty and how much are PHP? I ask, because one of our requirements is that non-programmers (one in particular) has to be able to come in to the system and make formatting alterations. He can do HTML, can deal with pnRender tags, but can't deal with PHP. PHP in the templates is a deal breaker, it's the difference between him being able to do something and me having to do everything.

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• hackernm
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Jul 24, 2009
  • Last visit: Jul 24, 2009
  • Posts: 1

  Posted: Jul 24, 2009 - 06:32 PM

  I have worked with the two CMS and I must say, Zikula technical features (pnRender, DBUtil, etc) do the process of development and customization a lot easier. However, nowadays, Drupal Extension Database is much larger than Zikula, and it?s an important aspect when you need to choose a CMS.
  
  Greetings

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• spax
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Jan 04, 2005
  • Last visit: Apr 13, 2010
  • Posts: 69

  Posted: Jul 25, 2009 - 03:44 AM

  Hi all
  
  

  Quote

  PHP in the templates is a deal breaker

  
  I dont agree, I just finished a midsize project with symfony (www.happysad.me) and it uses PHP as a template language too. And there is no difference of using Smarty as a template system or PHP. At the beginning I wondering why symfony has no template languag like Smarty (because I realy like it). But althout it would offer to use Smarty, I abstained from it. Important is the concept behind, which means fill in variables in action and use theme in a dedicated template file without much program code.
  
  It's too bad about such discussions that mostly the involved people dont realy know both cms/frameworks they discuss about. Mostly they have there favourite and may intalled a test version from the other supplier and had a short look into the code, like I did a few months ago.
  But we are all knowing too good, that this is not enogh to judge about a framework.
  whereupon I have to say the level of this disscussion is high enough to make this an interessting tread.
  
  Anyway, Im using Zikula since 4 years, made a few modules (e.g. pagemaster) and I realy like it and it has an impressive core and almost for every need a very good module. The developers have the focus on build a state of the art framework, not to have a feature rich click cklick system (I dont wanna say drupal is like that), they wouldn't have the ressources for that at least. I agree it hasn't 50 modules for each requirement, but honestly this is more an advantage then a disadvantage.
  
  The excursion to symfony opened my horizon and needless to say that symfony as one of the cleanest OO frameworks (and yes symfony is a framework and in my eyes zikula,drupal,joomla arent) is in some points out of range from zikula... But that is not the point in this disscussion. There are project I would recommend symfony and there are project I would recommend Zikula. Coding with symfony makes more fun, mainly if you like OO and a stric given concept. But WORKING with zikula makes more fun, mainly if you like to be productiv :)
  
  In 2 weeks I join a pretty big company with a drupal site, so I will be able to write a (hopefully) substantiated compare article of these 3 systems :) At the moment I assume I will miss Zikula, but for sure I will give drupal a chance.
  
  And for all Zikulaner, no you wont loose me as Zikula fan nor as the pagemaster dev., I still have lots sites up an running with zikula ;)

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• spax
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Jan 04, 2005
  • Last visit: Apr 13, 2010
  • Posts: 69

  Posted: Jul 25, 2009 - 03:50 AM

  I came to the conclusion that the functioninality and concepts of Zikula built on the top of the symfony framework would be awesome lol at least it would cost 30% of effort that Zikula includes allready lol

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• bronto
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: May 07, 2010
  • Posts: 507

  Posted: Jul 25, 2009 - 04:01 AM

  spax

  Hi all
  
  

  Quote

  PHP in the templates is a deal breaker

  
  I dont agree,

  
  
  I was speaking to our own requirements only, naturally. And for us it is. Tags for pnRender plugins encapsulates a lot of PHP and keeps it out of the way of non-coders. Nothing wrong with PHP in templates per se, but for us it is a deal breaker.

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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 30, 2010
  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Aug 01, 2009 - 01:03 AM

  I have to agree about the templating and lack of real difference between using Smarty or PHP - I thought at the start it was the way to go, but really there is no difference IMHO.
  
  

  Code

  <?php foreach($items as $item): ?>
  My <?php echo $item ?> is cool!
  <?php endforeach; ?>
  
  <?php if ($foo): ?>
   <strong><?php echo $foo ?></strong>
  <?php elseif ($bar): ?>
   <strong><?php echo $bar ?></strong>
  <?php else: ?>
   Nothing to see here, move along please!
  <?php endif; ?>

  
  
  The one thing that is good about Smarty is that it promotes separation of business logic and presentation - but even then this can be acheived using PHP as the templating language as well, it is no different really. Even the argument that it makes editing possible by non programmers doesn't hole much wieght either - I have seen (and made) Smarty based templates that a someone unused to working with Smarty wouldn't have a hope in hell understanding.
  
  --
  -Lobos
  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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• drak
  
  

  • Rank: Software Foundation
  • Registered: Jul 21, 2001
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 624

  Posted: Jan 01, 2012 - 04:12 PM

  You really have to look at Zikula 1.3, and for you information, Zikula 1.4 is heavily using Symfony2 components already and it will soon include Symfony2 Forms technology (once Roland submits his code).
  
  Drak
  
  --
  Zikula Lead Developer
  Board Member of the Zikula Foundation
  Follow me on twitter.com/zikuladrak

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• mazdev
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Sep 13, 2010
  • Last visit:
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  Posted: Jan 02, 2012 - 07:15 PM

  Zikula is perfect for guys like me, who have no clue about PHP (or very limited, I can read the code, but I'm good at XHTML & CSS). With a little bit of logical thinking it's very easy to use Smarty and to implement it, and ones you figured out the structure of Zikula and it's extension it's a heaven for dummies like me.
  
  I never got in to the code and Structure of Drupal, Wordpress and Joomla. I'm now since 2003 with Zikula former Postnuke and I love it.
  
  --
  Carl Georg aka Mazdev
  

  Jerindo.net - Ruminations of an Expat in Indonesia & Webdevelopment

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• Paustian
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 30, 2005
  • Last visit: May 31, 2010
  • Posts: 340

  Posted: Jan 05, 2012 - 06:33 AM

  Just thought I would add an update to this since this thread has come back from the dead. When I was making a new version of my book, I flirted with moving over to a new CMS and away from Zikula. I evaluated Drupal and Tiki Wiki in considering the change. I decided to still with Zikula. The reasons why are many of the things that are stated in this thread. Drupal does have a very active developer community, however, active is a relative term. My requirements were
  
  1) I needed a content module to handle the many documents. It had to be structured so that I could create a book/chapter/article organization. Zikula has this (Book Module) Drupal had a number of modules that could sort of do the same, but many of them were buggy or incomplete, or lacked the features of the Book module. (This one is unfair, since I wrote the book module and would obviously be biased toward my own code.)
  
  2) I needed a way to attach quizzes to content. Drupal again has a quiz like module, but you could not attach it to anything and it was very feature poor and did not grade the quiz. I have rolled my own quiz module that does this in Zikula
  
  3) Templating. I need to be able to modify things in the templates. Zikula has a powerful system for doing this, Drupal does not.
  
  #3 really made my decision for me. The take home message for me was that it's all well and good to have lots of code, but if none of it is done well, it's not worth it.
  
  I just finished the next edition of my book http://www.microbiol…&func=toc&book_id=5 and one of the things I wanted to do was make sure people who landed at the old table of contents and the old articles, were moved to the new table of contents. With zikula this was trivial. I just added a check in the toc template that look for if they were opening the old TOC and put a message saying there was a new edition. I also changed the displayarticle template in the Book module, but not IN the module. I overrode the template and added it to my module templates in my theme I was using. That feature alone, template override, of Zikula is just golden!
  
  (And yes I will get my new modules into github and into the extensions database ASAP)

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• Tommy1402
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Feb 13, 2008
  • Last visit: Dec 08, 2009
  • Posts: 16

  Posted: Mar 08, 2012 - 05:25 AM

  I'm both a Zikulan (1.x) and also a Drupaler (6.x). In my experience with both, here are my opinion:
  
  Drupal (6.x):
  - The menu system is nicer. Develop a module, automatically contains menu which integrates with central breadcrumb system.
  - Building web service based modules, never been easier. This allows me to integrate with another open-source PHP Projects like Moodle easy.
  - The Modules CCK and Views, can be used as far as creativity goes (like create content, DB, to your heart desire). Once I created a simple CRUDS (create-read-update-delete-search) Company-Divison module (two tables with one-to-many relation) in just 10 minutes. Wrote not a single line of code, by utilizing those two modules (CCK and Views).
  
  Zikula (1.x):
  - I haven't found any Open-Source PHP CMSes which support SQL-Server this good (not for Zikula 1.3.x). This is enough for me, because my company uses SQL-Server :D
  - Permission system, is more deeper.
  
  In the end, client wins.

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• rgasch

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