Degradable javascript - do we care? :: Zikula Community

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Degradable javascript - do we care?

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Jusuff

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Posted: 05.10.2008, 19:10

Currently I'm working on some module, which I wanted to be fully functional without javascript enabled. Looking for some examples, I've looked at core modules with disabled js. And I found some important areas which are inaccessible without javascript. For example: Blocks. To sort blocks javascript is required. The same goes for extmenu. To be truth - until now, I was convinced that the core is fully funcional without javascript (as for example Permissions are).

So there is a question to core team: should we care about fully degradable javascript? Is core supposed to work without enabled javascript? What are the plans in this area?

I'm asking because if core wont be prepared to work without javascript - there is no sense to care about this while creating modules.

And if there are plans to make core working without js - there are also areas in which some improvements are possible to make this task easier (for example - pnForms framework).

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Topiatic

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Posted: 05.10.2008, 22:04

+1 for caring.

There are browsers, and people do use them, that don't do javascript. That being said, it's practically required now a days to get full functionality from 80% of the popular internet. But I'd like to think that Zikula degrades gracefully.

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nestormateo

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Posted: 05.10.2008, 22:32

Well, IMHO this topic hurts
lately i've been playing with JS and Prototype, and thinking on mini frameworks to code things easy like sortable and manageable lists of any kind of items, seems like it's complicated to not work with JavaScript enabled because how can you have a sortable list into a block? Permissions and Blocks: easy, user functions, but blocks?

Core Modules should degrade gracefully (Blocks can copy the Permissions stuff),
but some stuff is just pretty hard to take care...

i wonder if it's possible to have a toolkit or documentation about this topic,
and common practices... that can be very nice!

and i could write about sortable item lists (improved technique of the Block Module)
and think how to degrade it

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espaan

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Posted: 06.10.2008, 05:00

Take also into account that there is a difference in User and Admin access. You can expect an Admin to have a modern browser with JS enabled (or not ?). But regular usage of a module with JS should degrade nicely IMHO.
But striving for degradability in the Core is a good thing.

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Arthens

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Posted: 06.10.2008, 10:58

I agree with espaan.
IMHO only the user interface HAS to be degradable.

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Guite

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Posted: 06.10.2008, 12:01

The core devs once decided to make also the administration degradable, as this is another important argument against other systems.
Most JS really is unobstrusive, there are a few places where this hasn't been considered yet though (like the Blocks administration).
There also was an open bug report in the NOC about that. So I think that it is probably going to be fixed in a later version.

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Jusuff

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Posted: 06.10.2008, 18:25

Guite
The core devs once decided to make also the administration degradable, as this is another important argument against other systems.

Good to know. But it would be even better if this would be also included in the Guidelines for Module Developers and Core roadmap

Guite
Most JS really is unobstrusive, there are a few places where this hasn't been considered yet though (like the Blocks administration).

I think that more important would be to make pnForms framework fully independent from js. Right now it isn't (eg. simple autopostback property for dropdownlist plugin, which use onchage event or more complicated - contextmenu).

pnFomrs are realy great tool, which should be used by module developers. But if pnForms are depending on js - all modules based on it will depend on js too.

nestormateo
Well, IMHO this topic hurts

No - not using javascript is painful

edited by: Jusuff, Oct 07, 2008 - 12:28 AM

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nestormateo

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Posted: 06.10.2008, 19:40

Jusuff
No - not using javascript is painful

That's why this topic hurt me

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AmmoDump

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Posted: 06.10.2008, 20:42

http://community.zikula.org/module-Forum-viewtopic-topic-54237-start-0.htm This has been discussed a bit before

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David Pahl
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Guite

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Posted: 07.10.2008, 02:06

Jusuff

Good to know. But it would be even better if this would be also included in the Guidelines for Module Developers and Core roadmap

Okay. Did you edit it accordingly?

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dl7und

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Posted: 07.10.2008, 13:05

As a non-dev but network admin I have to say that JS is evil. It is executed not on the server but on the client machine. I see the issue not so much with more or less modern browsers, but with people who simply disabled JS.

See it this way: Why is that site executing a program on my computer just to show me something? Can I trust that program and that site? That's why network admins not necessarily like it. But people who write trojan downloaders do... Where I can, I replace JS with CSS or PHP.

Just to add a different angle to the discussion...

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AmmoDump

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Posted: 07.10.2008, 13:55

I no longer see JS as just adding some effects to onclick... Ajax has given us the ability to smooth out complex UI functions. Disabling JS is not practical on sites that are more than just pages, but applications.

To have a nice user experience, Ajax is simply needed to streamline and polish the interface. I cannot see creating complex & practical apps without it...

We live in these times... and we set the standards... A no JS policy is not practical in today's web application interment, maybe it was 3 years ago, but it is no longer today....

Just my 2¢.

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dl7und

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Posted: 07.10.2008, 19:42

Well, that's the world as seen by a web developer. I just wanted to show the world as seen by network admins. From that point of view, Ajax is just another name for JS, and it is still code executed on a client computer.

I know, ActiveX is even worse, and I have seen organizations using ActiveX just to input numbers(!) into their web app (student scores into the administrative system, to be more specific), but that does not make JS better from a network security point of view, it's just that there are worse things. JS is still very popular today (they didn't stop that practice three years ago) in the botnet industry to deliver payload to their prospective clients.

A web developer does not set all standards and there are people who see things in a slightly different light. I just wanted to highlight this point, in case nobody noticed it...

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espaan

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Posted: 08.10.2008, 04:22

I think that is also why there is the aim for a fully JS degradable Zikula. It's good to hear different point of views to this kind of stuff
Also as a web developer aiming for CSS and/or PHP sounds like a good practice, instead of loads of JS. JS can also slow things down a lot if you're using big libraries (like prototype, scriptaculous in unpacked form etc).

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