I've installed the latest .8 release and after some install problems which I worked through myself I find myself shaking my head at the inner guts of this. PostNuke has always had an aura of being hard to learn and this new release will only compound that problem.
For instance - creating a new news item. You first have to install the value add-on, when imo such a module should be part of the core. Nearly every single person upgrading is going to need it, and same could be said of those doing fresh installs. but it gets worse - with the topics gone(unless you install the value addon again), you are presented with a poorly designed layout and no guidance on how to make a new news category. After an hour of fooling around with it I have gotten nowhere. If I was new to PostNuke I would have deleted the whole thing by now. It's just not intuitive in the least.
I'll go searching for information on how to do what should be a simple step - and creating a news category should be done from the news module no? It would make the most sense since the topics are changed.
And I've added the topics module but can't initialize it. There is no button or anything to do so. just an edit and delete button.
And for the referrers module - it displays in the 3rd party modules but not in the modules list, and does not work.
The permissions are still pretty much the same, though easier to work with, for those that know what they are doing already, but dare I say, probably still a nightmare for any new user?
I understand its an RC so problems are to be had, but PN really needs to address the issue of overall usability. It's always been PN's largest failing compared to the other CMS packages. I've been a long time and heavy user of PN so please take this as constructive criticism!
edited by: czardogs, Jul 19, 2007 - 01:17 PM
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 09:14 AM
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 09:29 AM
Of course, if you downloaded the core, in lieu of the FULL version, you will only get the core.. pretty much the barebones. PostNuke is more than a News servers, it doesn't have to be a News servers at all. There are other options for 'news' as well.
PostNuke is headed from CMS to Web Application Framework. For the final release, you should see a number of packages, as well as a custom package creator. Download what you want, only release.
As far as topics, some people do not need topics... Their site is a topic, with no need for sub-topics.
Of course 'we' know you are a long time user and developer of may sites.. but there comes a time to change, and this is it. This is still an RC version, but you said that. Hopefully you will report any specific problems to the bug tracker. I guess that is the point or the RC.
Anyway, I am sure you will grow to love the new PN, as you do the current PN. I by no means have it all figured out yet, and am getting used to the changes. Change is good!
Happy PostNuking!
Dave
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David Pahl
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 09:31 AM
Sorry, about the typoos -having a very rough day.
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David Pahl
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 10:12 AM
Well,
in the moduledev-mailinglist i've opened this topic: about Usability.
It's not a new topic to talk, but PN needs some adjustment to be confortable to new users: "make it easy to use, and everybody will use it".
I did a review of all the PN views (Core and ValueAddons) and modified some forms to be user-oriented and confortable to add/modify news, pages, all...
I've waited to RC1 to begin the work in this direction, but now i'm busy with pnRelay... just finish this module and work on the Usability issues to PN 0.8
IMHO, We have to think and develop solutions to make the theme more flexible, menus minimumly, and give sufficient control to the admin without have to modify HTML... major changes like CSS and layout, is a theme issue, i mean minor changes like menus.
We may study the viability to develop a custom Distribution, like mootools, you choose the modules that you want... but the easy way is make distros to satisfy different needs: community, blog, news-portal, ecommerce...
but czardgs, part of your critic is for your error, you haven't download the full version, you're mad with the core-only like David says... let's think solutions for the other part: usability.
i'm improving the forms, thinking in a Menu Manager...
what can we do to improve the PN 0.8 usability?
a lot, sure, but let's begin to generate ideas.
edited by: nestormateo, Jul 19, 2007 - 10:14 PM
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- Mateo T. -
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 11:09 AM
The thing is I have installed everything there is to install for this release - I even included some 3rd party modules, and one of my own for testing. So if a four year user of PN can't get it right, what's the chance a brand new user will 100% of the time?
I'll include all the bugs I find in the tracker - and so far there are a few, mostly with the modules not installing properly on my setup.
But my main gist is still this category module and how it plays with the rest of the setup - at this point it will not win over any new fans to PN imo. Those of us who have been around since .723 or older, it's pretty obvious we like to get our hands dirty and take the time to create a website with PN. But many people are not going to be bothered if they are not getting it right away, and thus they are not going to use the product, or get full use out of it.
I've built and sold so many PN sites I can't even remember how many, but sadly most of them have been converted to another CMS after the buyer has complained they cannot work with PN. And that goes to what nestormateo says about usability.
Let's follow the steps a new user would take in my scenario with the news module.
User wants to post an article, so they go to the news module to create a new news article. They are then presented with their choices - one of them being the selection of a category. But it's blank, there are no categories to choose from, so how to create one? They search and find the category module but now what? They look at some of the entries already there but none seem to apply to what they want. So now what? Trial and error most likely, and with that frustration.
What could help much of the above - built in help links to documentation in the Wiki. So no matter where they are in their process or need of help - the link to explain what this selection is, or what that extra data field does - and most important how to use it etc.
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 12:07 PM
czardogs
But my main gist is still this category module and how it plays with the rest of the setup - at this point it will not win over any new fans to PN imo.
+1
I have to say that I think the concept itself is great, it just needs some work to make it more user-friendly. Even just a link from the News module to the Categories module would be helpful. Even better, a way to view and create categories from within the News module (or any other module, for that matter) would be helpful. Maybe the Categories module needs to be able to hook onto other modules? -
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 12:40 PM
So, a first conclussion is to improve the categories interface, from each module that manage it... i think in something like a 'categoriesapi' to get a 'SELECT' included in the add-form, and a form to create/modify/delete from every module that use it...
I think that this RC1 is the relative final of the CORE development, but we need to start the improvement of the ValueAddons modules and make it the best!
don't you think?
in PN we can find solutions in many ways...
I've built some PN 0.764 sites and yes, the administration at the beginning is hard to the buyers, but you can reach their needs and web-experience (mind maps) to adapt the Admin-panel... in 0.7x i play with the template, add a scrollable-menu with specific options to manage all the site and bingo, they are happy!
But to 0.8 i think that all the display of the Admin-Panel can change, and that we can design many ways to display the Admin-options and choose the one that satisfy our (or the buyer) needs...
First To-Do:
Categories interface/api to the modules that use it.
edited by: nestormateo, Jul 20, 2007 - 12:50 AM
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- Mateo T. -
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 02:51 PM
I agree, now that the works on Core and API are almost completed (ok, it'll never be complete, but you know what I mean..) it is time to improve usability and the value addons.
IMO PostNuke .8 still needs:
- a new default theme (the themes included in the release are really really ugly...)
- a new admin theme (ehi Wendell, you were working on it, weren't you?)
- an easier interface for the category modules (it is a really nightmare now...)
- a better theme for the installer
I know, the graphic isn't a really important thing because you can easily change it, but having an amazing theme really help for gain new users! And don't say that we don't need this type of user, because the today noobs would be power users tomorrow... when I began with postnuke 6 years ago I didn't have any knowledge of HTML, PHP, webserver etc... and today I'm going to open a support site about postnuke (ops, I have said it...)
Another thing I'd be very glad to see improved is the blocks management... if you have to create a simple menu with a lot of links is REALLY boring... why is not possible to specify how many rows do you need before to create the menu? Or use javascript for add on-fly a new row when needed?
At the moment you have to:
- create the block
- insert one row and select "Insert blank after"
- save it
- click "modify"
- insert one row and select "Insert blank after"
- save it
etc... so boring! If one has a long menu to insert (or from bad to worse one menu for every installed languages...) he'd change to another CMS...
Don't misunderstand me! I really like PN .8 and I'm already developing on it a couple of sites, but I think there are some imperfections that would be great to resolve before the final release :)
Good job PN-team!
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Zikula Italia
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 08:59 PM
Some feedback on the feedback.
1) As mentioned already the core contains only the core not any modules. Use the full pack for this. It would be useful if these modules could automatically be added to relevant admin categories but this isn't as easy as it sounds.
2) The categories module, like the rest of PN, is a work in progress. I agree with most that there are some usability problems here that we need to address. As a quick fix i'll add a link to the category management page next to the cateogry selector. One solution to this would be a MultiHook style Ajax popup to allow for creation of categories from within the module.
What I can also do is hide some of the less important fields when creating, editing a category. A little JS will keep these fields out of the way unless you need them.
3) The menu block. Take a look at the extmenu block type. There was no easy way to bring new features to the existing menu block due to the underlying data structure. The extmenu block is Ajax enabled for easy editing.
4) Default themes - this is a matter of opinion. I happen to like all of the default themes in particular andreas08. This template is one whose original has been download many, many times and been the basis of many a site design.
On a theme related sidenote as soon as I get a spare hour or two i'll release over a hundred new .8x themes - all ported from open source templates.
-Mark
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Posted: Jul 19, 2007 - 10:37 PM
markwest
One solution to this would be a Formicula style Ajax popup to allow for creation of categories from within the module.
I am sure you mean MultiHook-style popups
. Something like this is on my to-do list for .9 as well as other Ajax magic too where it makes sense and improves usability, eg. changing the module status like we do in the blocks list right now.
Quote
3) The menu block. Take a look at the extmenu block type. There was no easy way to bring new features to the existing menu block due to the underlying data structure. The extmenu block is Ajax enabled for easy editing.
It also offers the option to add the recent URL to an existing menu block. This enables you to build a menu while surfing your site if you want.
Frank
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Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 12:19 AM
markwest
3) The menu block. Take a look at the extmenu block type. There was no easy way to bring new features to the existing menu block due to the underlying data structure. The extmenu block is Ajax enabled for easy editing.
Amazing! Just tried this block and I already love it!
but why then is not used by default? When you make a fresh install the system creates the main menu using the old, and reallly bad, menu block...
IMO the standard menu block would be deprecated, it'd be better if new users begin with the new, and really good, menu block.
p.s. I've found some little bugs with this new block, i'm going to submit them to the bugtracker this afternoom.
markwest
4) Default themes - this is a matter of opinion. I happen to like all of the default themes in particular andreas08. This template is one whose original has been download many, many times and been the basis of many a site design.
You're right, is a matter of opinion...
but maybe you could make a list with 10/20/... themes and make a pubblic poll for let the community choose which graphic use for represent PostNuke .8 
it's only an idea...
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Zikula Italia
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Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 01:37 AM
The two additional templates for this release were selected on popularity on various open source template sites - a far wider range of people than the PN community - and on quality of markup as good examples of a base starting point for people to build from.
A theme competition is a good idea for the future but, at least for now, the default templates are going to stay as-is.
-Mark
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Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 07:42 AM
Arthens
a new admin theme (ehi Wendell, you were working on it, weren't you?)
Sadly, I have had a very difficult time finding the opportunity to spend any quality time with this. At the time I started that, I had plenty of time and didn't see any problem with allowing some time for it in the forseeable future. Obviously, things changed. Between personal issues (sickness, deaths (yes, plural) in the family) and professional issues (the recent success of my own business, yay), it has been difficult (if not impossible) to dedicate any time to PN in any way outside of client needs.
On a positive note, I have had the need to work on some of my first PN modules (for clients) and am hoping to release them at some point. -
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Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 08:01 AM
markwest
3) The menu block. Take a look at the extmenu block type. There was no easy way to bring new features to the existing menu block due to the underlying data structure. The extmenu block is Ajax enabled for easy editing.
Pfiew, did I miss that one, but what a big step forward, I always found that ennoying with the block-title, especially if you're using different languages...
off topic: postnuke.com works fine with the latest Safari for Windows [although I think it' slower then FF, IE and Opera ]
- Igor
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Posted: Jul 20, 2007 - 11:51 PM
Wendell
Arthens
a new admin theme (ehi Wendell, you were working on it, weren't you?)
Sadly, I have had a very difficult time finding the opportunity to spend any quality time with this.
Wendell,
As mentioned before can you put the theme somewhere public (say a NOC project) and i'll work on it a bit.
-Mark
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