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  • MMaynard

    No no.. sorry if you got that impression, it wasn't you per se that I have discussed this with, just the community in general. I just don't like to see the "small niche" gaming community get overlooked because people think they aren't willing to spend money on sites.

    I still recommend and USE PostNuke on any site I have the choice on. icon_smile


    Thanks for clarifying :) I understand and appreciate the gaming market, my son is a 'gamer'. ;) And I hope things can change in this area in the future -- guess it will take someone passionate about this area to 'scratch' the itch.


    --
    iThinkMedia.com

    Follow me on Twitter
  • kaffeeringe.de

    The team doesn't have to sell Postnuke, as we don't earn money with it. That's your job. We aim at people like you. You are the target group of Postnuke. The
    multipliers, coders, designers ASO.


    I understand that completely, but you really DO have to "sell" PostNuke.
    You can have the best CMS in the world, but if there are not parts of it that appeal to a larger audience then you will not gather a larger userbase then there is now.

    When I first started using PN years ago the main reason I chose it was the breadth of modules that were available and under development.
    This is where the Marketing part comes into play, if you go out and visit the other CMS sites, you will see the vibrant third party module development going on.
    This is what attracts people to the system, not the quality of the underlying engine.
    PostNuke has reached that quality point, now we need to start on the QUANTITY portion.
    This is the point that I was trying to make, we need to go and look at what the overall CMS community is looking for and attempt to deliver on those wants, not just the wants of the few core developers.

    Themes are one small part of the equation and I can design for any platform.


    --
    Zikula Themes
  • MMaynard

    kaffeeringe.de

    The team doesn't have to sell Postnuke, as we don't earn money with it. That's your job. We aim at people like you. You are the target group of Postnuke. The
    multipliers, coders, designers ASO.


    I understand that completely, but you really DO have to "sell" PostNuke.
    You can have the best CMS in the world, but if there are not parts of it that appeal to a larger audience then you will not gather a larger userbase then there is now.

    When I first started using PN years ago the main reason I chose it was the breadth of modules that were available and under development.
    This is where the Marketing part comes into play, if you go out and visit the other CMS sites, you will see the vibrant third party module development going on.
    This is what attracts people to the system, not the quality of the underlying engine.
    PostNuke has reached that quality point, now we need to start on the QUANTITY portion.
    This is the point that I was trying to make, we need to go and look at what the overall CMS community is looking for and attempt to deliver on those wants, not just the wants of the few core developers.

    Themes are one small part of the equation and I can design for any platform.



    That's what we want to do -- reach out to the 'first line' partners as I mentioned earlier in the thread. We want to know how we, as a project, can attract more third party devs in all the major areas. Additionally, how can we help you help your customers, note, most of us involved with the project are also third party devs so we have a bit of an idea -- but bringing in a larger group will help bring the most important issues to the forefront.



    --
    iThinkMedia.com

    Follow me on Twitter
  • Comparing postnuke with other CMS's is like comparing Linux with windows.

    Postnuke might be userfriendly, but it's abrcadabra to the new admins. I've had a look at several other systems, and had a 'WOW' moment at a couple of them. Adding modules/themes are done in the admin. Just upload a file using the site, and it unpacks it, and it's working.

    Where postnuke might be more secure and stable, others are far more ahead in being friendly, better multilingual, have far greater help on-site.

    It's a given thing PHP-nuke is still popular, due to the amount of what gamers/clanners have as needs. Those needs can't be done with postnuke, so postnuke isn't their engine.

    Were PHP-nuke comes with standard captcha for registration, PN will never have this. It's not accessible.
    I've asked for accesskeys in the core menu, and got the reply: We don't add it, because we don't want to overwrite users shortcuts when it comes to browsers (where the pn_bbcode has a lot of accesskeys to add bbcode, and is part of the .7 core package).
    I've also requested a feature for being able to open sites in a new windows from the menu, or by clicking on rss-feeds on the site, and neither will that be added, because the user should be in control over how links work.

    The way i want to run my site, can't be done with postnuke, because some devvers say things shouldn't be added. Me personally, the devvers/crew don't give any value as what the users want to see.

    The standard install gives a frontpage with some information, that it's a weblog content management. But for weblog'ing it's stuck in the early 90's. Take a look at weblog packages like wordpress. Take a look at the coding, it's a mess, but the users doesn't care, it does the job. And it does it totally right and fast and effective.

    Where .7 is way off from the major search engine guidelines, for instance the guideline: Do not duplicate content, and PN'ers say: for SEO: use shorturls, which is something that is the oppesite of SEO, due to the fact that you're duplication content.

    Take a look at the urls with shorturls on, both on .7 and .8 it's a total mess. Far from SEO for that matter. That the standard installation is w3c compliant is something i like to see in a site, but hence the fact that site rank high on some keywords, with the worst kind of markup used, makes it not a dig deal if the markup is w3c compiant or not.

    For people browsing a site, 80% doesn't care if it's valid, as long as the can use it. Popular PN site are a spam-magnet, and that won't change, since all things that block these spambots are non-accessiblity, and won't be added.

    People that want to run a CMS, want it due to the ease of the controls, and that's something postnuke isn't in a long shot. When i started with postnuke, i thought it'd be easy to config, and sturcture it into a nice site, and that wasn't a fact.

    Where other systems are self-explaining, or even come with a good help in the admin, PN is a mess when it comes to the admin GUI. Making it not friendly.

    I'm not saying PN is crap software, but it could be soo much better, if only the devvers should pay a bit more attention when it comes to what people look for in a CMS.

    Some hypocritisme comes to mind when some folks reply on posts in the forum saying: you should upgrade, blah blah, and when they do, their site won't work, because there been changes made that breaks 3rd modules.

    I can't even post code on a postnuke site, due to some things are filtered, and can't even been turned off.. Ever tried to add in the CMS? It won't work.

    The more I've been trying, the more issues i ran into that weren't possible within postnuke.

    When i add a news item, i need to know HTML befor i can have it markup-wise correctly. Which i thing a CMS should do by itself. I'm still have a PN site running, but the hassle it is to write an article well with the correct tags, it'd be easier to open a HTML editor and write it in there, and put up static pages for that matter.

    What lobos said in his opening post, that the populairity drops on each codebase change, the only thing i can think of is that with each new version there are only things that work less, instead of adding functionality too it.

    The upgrade archives did contain a shitload of unchanged files as well, but since I've changed many core files, a list of files that didn't changed couldn't be given. When there seems to be a security issue, there won't be given a fix/patch for that issue, but a complete new version is build. Which does many people that have fine-tuned postnuke to their needs, redo everything again.

    Known issues aren't delt with, there was a bug in the memberslist template in 7.6.2 and there were many topics open because of it. The support giving by the devvers is lacking on that issue, that there isn't any section with fixes or patches to known issues that doesn't need a new version.

    Replies like: you can get it from the NOC, is just support-unfriendly. This things can be made downloadable in the download area, and have a new items publisched on the frontpage, so there aren't 999 topics opend from an issue that's known for like a year. Deal with things instandly.

    I don't need a new version when 1 or 2 files are actually changed, but the package contains 600+ files, and i need to re-add my changes, because PN lacks it to be uptodate when it comes to websites in the year 2007.
  • Hmmm!

    Here's a couple more name suggestions...

    REDMARK

    Shortcut

    Chortkut

  • I recall another thread that got hijacked with the name change motive (not suggesting this one has yet), if it's going to be taken seriously at all by the PNSF it should move into it's own thread soon, and I do think the PNSF should take it seriously considering the number of times it's come up, and the attention it grabs from the community... also I hate the name too. I think that PostNuke was apt up to Phoenix, but since pn8 no longer carries any nuke code, it should lose the nuke reference.

    I also recall a concern in that thread that 'PN' is rather integral to PostNukes code base and that a transition would be easier if a new name incorporated 'PN' in some way. Like PortalNexus or PluckNachos or even PlantNewtrees. I can be more creative, but that was the idea anyways.

    I can't find that thread since I don't recall any of the uniques suggestions to search with. Anyone else recall the thread?

    --
    Under Construction!
  • ZarToXidE

    PostNuke might be userfriendly, but it's abrcadabra to the new admins. I've had a look at several other systems, and had a 'WOW' moment at a couple of them. Adding modules/themes are done in the admin. Just upload a file using the site, and it unpacks it, and it's working.


    This is it, this is why CMS such as Joomla / Mambo are so popular - they have a nice admin interface and nice default themes. It's always about first impression and these CMS give that to the user. They have a good designer working with them in Rhuk:

    http://www.rockettheme.com/

    In my experience these are some of the best themes I have ever seen and PN would do well to take notes.

    Another thing about Joomla is the defualt install, they actually poplulate the CMS with some demo data and utilise more than 3 block positions. Anyone installing gets a good look at how the site will run without having to set it all up themselves.

    -Lobos


    --
    -Lobos
    Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment
  • Lobos

    ZarToXidE

    PostNuke might be userfriendly, but it's abrcadabra to the new admins. I've had a look at several other systems, and had a 'WOW' moment at a couple of them. Adding modules/themes are done in the admin. Just upload a file using the site, and it unpacks it, and it's working.


    This is it, this is why CMS such as Joomla / Mambo are so popular

    PostNuke will never be a system for people who don't know how to unzip and upload a couple of files via FTP. Joomla and Mambo are not only well known for their usability, they are also notorious for their lack of security. This is also due to all the writable paths in a standart Joomla installation.

    PostNuke has always struggled against the reputation of being a security risk - a reputation inherited from PHPNuke. You can now install it with actually no available writable folder or file within webroot. And the devs are really proud of it. And they are right. The gain of usability to once install a theme and 8-10 times install a module at the start of a new site does not justify to have open folders during the whole operation time.

    The reason for not integrating _target="blank" into the menu is that:
    a) It is undisputed among usability specialists that _target="blank" is wrong.
    b) Nobody wants to put any work into the old menu block as it is templated in .8 - There you can build in everything you like.

    In .8 you won't have to hack any core files anymore. You can adjust everything in templates, add function via plugins or API functions and store all your additions within the theme, where they are safe from updates.

    The reason for the mediocre support of patches is, that nobody outs more work into the .7 series than needed. They all concentrate on .8.

    All in all I am sure that we can never persuade any of the users who are to new to the internet to know how to use ftp to use Postnuke. Postnuke .8 is a system aimed at (semi-)professionals. It gives developers the means for effective programming. And we hope that the community is going to benefit from these people's work.


    --
    best regards from Kiel, sailing city

    Steffen Voss

    Member of the Zikula Steering Committee
    Read The Zikulan's Blog "If you want people to RTFM, make a better FM!"
  • kaffeeringe.de

    Lobos

    ZarToXidE

    PostNuke might be userfriendly, but it's abrcadabra to the new admins. I've had a look at several other systems, and had a 'WOW' moment at a couple of them. Adding modules/themes are done in the admin. Just upload a file using the site, and it unpacks it, and it's working.


    This is it, this is why CMS such as Joomla / Mambo are so popular

    PostNuke will never be a system for people who don't know how to unzip and upload a couple of files via FTP. Joomla and Mambo are not only well known for their usability, they are also notorious for their lack of security. This is also due to all the writable paths in a standart Joomla installation.


    I don't know Joomla / Mambo, but on the biggest Dutch techforum, there are dedicated Joomla threads, and there aren't any posts of the those systems are insecure. And most of them are devvers themselves. But as I said, haven't looked at it, so who am I to say if it's secure or not.

    Quote


    PostNuke has always struggled against the reputation of being a security risk - a reputation inherited from PHPNuke. You can now install it with actually no available writable folder or file within webroot. And the devs are really proud of it. And they are right. The gain of usability to once install a theme and 8-10 times install a module at the start of a new site does not justify to have open folders during the whole operation time.

    Then postnuke's reputation isn't good. Inherited or not. Thing is, if you say you have a great product, you need to confince people about it. Maybe time for a demo.postnuke.com ?

    Quote


    The reason for not integrating _target="blank" into the menu is that:
    a) It is undisputed among usability specialists that _target="blank" is wrong.
    b) Nobody wants to put any work into the old menu block as it is templated in .8 - There you can build in everything you like.

    In .8 you won't have to hack any core files anymore. You can adjust everything in templates, add function via plugins or API functions and store all your additions within the theme, where they are safe from updates.

    I personally don't care if someone is a specialist or not, it's my site, not theirs. And I want my site to work as I want it to work.

    And for that i do need to hack core-files. Since not all links should open in a window, nor will each item have an accesskey. That needs to be placed in the database, and can't be templated.

    When making a menu, i miss the options: open in a new windows, and the accesskey field. These can't by themed. Specially when there are more then 1 theme available.

    Quote


    The reason for the mediocre support of patches is, that nobody outs more work into the .7 series than needed. They all concentrate on .8.

    And that's someone i can really fall over about. From the core-team, there's 0,0 information regarding known issues.
    To me, it seems .7 is already left out, and should not be used. How hard is it, as for the template error to zip it, and put it into the download section? There been many topics on it, and replying takes more time to just release a patch for it.
    There's no need to wait for a new version to fix things.

    Quote


    All in all I am sure that we can never persuade any of the users who are to new to the internet to know how to use ftp to use Postnuke. Postnuke .8 is a system aimed at (semi-)professionals. It gives developers the means for effective programming. And we hope that the community is going to benefit from these people's work.

    But not all users are programmers.. A system should work, if you're a programmer or not. Looking at the .8 distro, without the value addons, if an empty bucket, can't do anything with it. A CMS in my idea is more then just a basecore / framework.

    Ofcourse you can't make a product that fits the needs of everyone.

    I think lobos started this thread making that clear. Each new version has it's negative things that 3rd party module tend to fail working. People needs a system they can work with, instead of things that have worked, no longer work.

    That stated, people choose other products that works good, and is working fine. How things are developed or how the API works etc..etc.. the user doesn't care, as long as it works. If other CMS's would be a bitch to develop on, there wouldn't be such great products, due to the fact that as with each new version of PN, things tend to stop working.

    If I download the complete package of PHP-nuke, i get a system with everything on it. forum, galary, calandar, captcha login.. Install it, and you have a site running. Installing postnuke, gives not even half a site for that matter.

    As stated by lobos, that postnuke drops in populairity, the team might think on why that's the case. That PN is easy to develop for, a user doesn't care, they want a system that work, out of the box. Plain and simple, and since PN doesn't do that, and other do, other packages will be used over PN..
  • ZarToXidE

    But not all users are programmers.. A system should work, if you're a programmer or not. Looking at the .8 distro, without the value addons, if an empty bucket, can't do anything with it. A CMS in my idea is more then just a basecore / framework.

    Ofcourse you can't make a product that fits the needs of everyone.
    Ooooh yes, we can. But how we do it is a surprise. icon_wink

    --
    best regards from Kiel, sailing city

    Steffen Voss

    Member of the Zikula Steering Committee
    Read The Zikulan's Blog "If you want people to RTFM, make a better FM!"
  • They thing that REALLY bothers me is the lack of well.....everything. Let me explain.

    I can remmeber a time when posting in the postnuke forums would get you help almost instantly and good help too, not a bunch of people who also dont know what there doing trying to help. Alos modules and blocks and themes were releasd every other day back in what i will call the "glory days" lol.

    Now the forums are dead compared to what they used to be,the help in the forums is well...lets just say its there and thats about it.The module and block releases are so far and few between that its almost a joke now. Of course you will get ppl saying "there waiting for the new .8 to start releasing things". Sorry but that dosent cut it anymore, espically since we have been hearing that for what seems like forever?. I can go to a diff CMS and downlaod a thousand different extensions and themes and such all created in the last couple of months (yes i know the other CMS are not postnuke)

    Now dont get me wrong. I love postnuke and have used it since its been around I think but I am running into problems where postnuke just simply cant do what other far less advanced CMS can do. Which would be okay if someone was working on a way to do thing a or thing b, but thats the problem there just isnt. You can not have a CMS or product of any kind for that matter that does not keep up with the general public.

    If postnuke is to survive it will have to at least come close to, if not surpass what the other CMS are offereing in terms of themes and moudles,blocks.. yes they are not secure as postnuke but as said before by another post

    "users dont care how it works they just want it to work, and if it dosent they will find one that does".

    Enough people do this and it wont matter how secure your code is if no ones uses your product.

    I guess in general what Im saying is that postnuke needs to get it together as far as themes,modules and blocks go. Not even a demo.postnuke.com yet. I mean comeon. Someone made a good point about the default theme. Is it really that hard to come up with a decent standard theme?. First impressions are big.

    I know the coders work for little if not nothing most times, and I am greatful to them for spending there times this way but releasing a block or theme or module once(excluding the last week or so) a month is not acceptable to me. I love postnuke and will continue too use it in hopes that it will one day return to its previous level of support.

    This is not meant to sound like im bashing postnuke or any of the people who have contributed just saying what ALLOT of people are thinking.
  • They thing that REALLY bothers me is the lack of well.....everything. Let me explain.

    I can remmeber a time when posting in the postnuke forums would get you help almost instantly and good help too, not a bunch of people who also dont know what there doing trying to help. Alos modules and blocks and themes were releasd every other day back in what i will call the "glory days" lol.

    Now the forums are dead compared to what they used to be,the help in the forums is well...lets just say its there and thats about it.The module and block releases are so far and few between that its almost a joke now. Of course you will get ppl saying "there waiting for the new .8 to start releasing things". Sorry but that dosent cut it anymore, espically since we have been hearing that for what seems like forever?. I can go to a diff CMS and downlaod a thousand different extensions and themes and such all created in the last couple of months (yes i know the other CMS are not postnuke)

    Now dont get me wrong. I love postnuke and have used it since its been around I think but I am running into problems where postnuke just simply cant do what other far less advanced CMS can do. Which would be okay if someone was working on a way to do thing a or thing b, but thats the problem there just isnt. You can not have a CMS or product of any kind for that matter that does not keep up with the general public.

    If postnuke is to survive it will have to at least come close to, if not surpass what the other CMS are offereing in terms of themes and moudles,blocks.. yes they are not secure as postnuke but as said before by another post

    "users dont care how it works they just want it to work, and if it dosent they will find one that does".

    Enough people do this and it wont matter how secure your code is if no ones uses your product.

    I guess in general what Im saying is that postnuke needs to get it together as far as themes,modules and blocks go. Not even a demo.postnuke.com yet. I mean comeon. Someone made a good point about the default theme. Is it really that hard to come up with a decent standard theme?. First impressions are big.

    I know the coders work for little if not nothing most times, and I am greatful to them for spending there times this way but releasing a block or theme or module once(excluding the last week or so) a month is not acceptable to me. I love postnuke and will continue too use it in hopes that it will one day return to its previous level of support.

    This is not meant to sound like im bashing postnuke or any of the people who have contributed just saying what ALLOT of people are thinking.
  • So and who do you think should write modules? It can't all be done by the core devs. I see people here sitting, whining: "Oh the great core devs don't listen to my valueable opinion and they don't programme what I want."

    I learnded in the past few years that if you want something to happen: do it yourself.

    What have you done to change the situation?
    Release your own theme.
    Start writing into the Wiki what you know about Postnuke. It's open to everyone. Start writing tutorials.
    Do you have your own module project?
    Review modules. Give the programmers feedback.
    Install .8 and go bug hunting. Test its usability.
    Write news about module development. Interview module developers. Ask them for their input. What they do and why they do it.

    There is just so much that can be done even by people who are not coding heroes.

    What do you think the core devs should do? Mail with every user? Listen to every opinion? That is not their job. Actually none of what they do is their job. They do it in their spare time. Because they like what they do. And they like the idea of what their work will be.

    I don't want to read any more crappy complaints about what other people did wrong. If you do anything to change it, you better shut up. icon_mad

    --
    best regards from Kiel, sailing city

    Steffen Voss

    Member of the Zikula Steering Committee
    Read The Zikulan's Blog "If you want people to RTFM, make a better FM!"
  • kaffeeringe.de


    What do you think the core devs should do? Mail with every user? Listen to every opinion? That is not their job. Actually none of what they do is their job. They do it in their spare time. Because they like what they do. And they like the idea of what their work will be.

    I don't want to read any more crappy complaints about what other people did wrong. If you do anything to change it, you better shut up. icon_mad


    And there my friends is the problem. This community has become so unfriendly is isn't even funny anymore.


    --
    Zikula Themes
  • kaffeeringe.de

    What have you done to change the situation? .
    Started this post

    kaffeeringe.de

    Release your own theme. .


    - Almost ready actually thx

    kaffeeringe.de

    Do you have your own module project?.

    ---- NO

    kaffeeringe.de

    Review modules. Give the programmers feedback..

    ---- Have done so with no response

    kaffeeringe.de

    Install .8 and go bug hunting. Test its usability. .

    ---- Did/currently doing this

    kaffeeringe.de

    Write news about module development..


    - Have an entire site dedicated to tech news and a whole seperate topic just for postnuke.

    kaffeeringe.de

    There is just so much that can be done even by people who are not coding heroes.

    What do you think the core devs should do? Mail with every user? Listen to every opinion? That is not their job. Actually none of what they do is their job. They do it in their spare time. Because they like what they do. And they like the idea of what their work will be.


    No they do not need to listen to everyones opionon but they do need to listen to SOME of them. People seem to be missing the point that it dosent matter how good/well coded/awesome your product is if no one uses it. Not to say that no one will use postnuke but no one ever thought micrsoft would be big either

    kaffeeringe.de

    I don't want to read any more crappy complaints about what other people did wrong. If you do anything to change it, you better shut up. icon_mad


    I'd suggest using a different forum then icon_evil

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