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  • MACscr
    MACscr
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    Link to this post Posted: May 19, 2006 - 06:34 AM
    How about just applying this theme and change a few colors to match. He did a pretty good job with it.

    http://community.postnuke.com/module-Database-viewpub-tid-10-pid-1097.htm

    I would recommend giving the option for searching to be able to show posts or threads.
  • markwest
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    Link to this post Posted: May 19, 2006 - 11:56 AM

    MACscr

    How about just applying this theme and change a few colors to match. He did a pretty good job with it.


    While it looks nice the reason we don't and won't use this is because, like most forums, it's a horrible inaccessible mess of tables. PHPBB is a really bad example of a modern web application.

    At some point or other we're going to have to move on from tables for layout however hard it may be since it will soon, and in some locales already is, illegal to create websites that can't be read by people with disabilities.

    The horrible truth is that most PN sites I see fail to meet even the most basic of web standards. People setting up and running these sites are doing thier customers and visitors a dis-service.

    -Mark


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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: May 19, 2006 - 05:10 PM
    Search first, then post!!

    Look first left, then right (but in UK or Australia, if you do so you might be overdriven)

    Quote

    While it looks nice the reason we don't and won't use this is because, like most forums, it's a horrible inaccessible mess of tables. PHPBB is a really bad example of a modern web application.


    I don't quite understand ...

    Design refered to is for for pnForum, so why you start talking about what a mess phpbb or other real forum software are ?

    Or ain't it possible to do similar tableless design?

    If that is the case, why start blaming forum software for that?

    Fast food is not good for your health

    I didn't seach before posting, so I must be a real bad person,
    but I just have to remember that, high blood pressure is not good for your heart.



  • markwest
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    Link to this post Posted: May 19, 2006 - 09:42 PM
    The template set referred to is a port of phpbb template set is why I mentioned phpbb. While it looks nice like most phpbb templates it's heaviliy tables based.

    The search first message is just a gentle reminder that answers can often be found via a search of the forum or the documentation.

    -Mark

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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: May 23, 2006 - 08:53 PM
    I think this new lets work through the bugs on a live site is doing PostNuke a dis-service. Postnuke will be loosing new people while you guys work through this. This site should be the forfront of design and usability. Not alot of errors. I have an error when searchign modules. Whatever boxes I check it wont display results or go to the next page. I have used Firefox (newest version) IE 6.0 and still cant. Also the Search first then post should dissapear when someone starts to type as it gets in the way when someone types over it.

    This should of been put on a test site while users here help detect the bugs first.

    sorry, if this was the first time comming here, I would totally be turned off from postnuke and think of it as in its infamcy and turn to something more advanced. However, I do know the power of postnuke and know it is alot better then this.

    I knost tables are evil and in some cases not allowed to be used. But, doing this is evil to the postnuke site.
  • pheski
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    Link to this post Posted: May 24, 2006 - 01:50 AM

    silverscout

    Also the Search first then post should dissapear when someone starts to type as it gets in the way when someone types over it.

    \

    This appears to be the way it works in some browsers (FireFox for example) but not in others.


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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: May 24, 2006 - 03:02 PM
    Just got this error when going to page 11 on the search

    Warning: get_browser(): browscap ini directive not set. in /home/pncomm/domains/community.postnuke.com/public_html/includes/pnAntiCracker.php on line 157

    Warning: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at /home/pncomm/domains/community.postnuke.com/public_html/includes/pnAntiCracker.php:157) in /home/pncomm/domains/community.postnuke.com/public_html/includes/pnAntiCracker.php on line 56
  • MACscr
    MACscr
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    Link to this post Posted: May 24, 2006 - 10:08 PM

    markwest

    The template set referred to is a port of phpbb template set is why I mentioned phpbb. While it looks nice like most phpbb templates it's heaviliy tables based.

    -Mark


    Thats because its data that is supposed to be in a table. Come on, with your experience, you should know that tables still have their uses and arent evil. Im not saying they arent over used, but they still have a purpose, and yes, in XHTML as well. Im not saying it cant be mimic'ed with straight CSS, but their really isnt a point in some cases. Believing that tables are evil and they shouldnt be used at all is ignorant. Also, do you think validation is more important than usability/readability?
  • markwest
    markwest
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    Link to this post Posted: May 24, 2006 - 10:42 PM
    macscr,


    Tables have thier use - this I agree - in marking up tabular data. However that tables are the best markup for a forum I don't necessarily agree although it is an interesting discussion - much better than the abitrary 'I (like/don't like) pnForum' discussions.....


    Let's look at a forum and work out the best way to markup our content....


    Looking at the category/forum level what I see is a nested list with the forum categories being the first list level with each forum in the category being the 2nd level list. i.e.


    Code

    <ul>
    <li>category .....</li>
    <li>
    <ul>
    <li>forum 1</li>
    <li>forum 2</li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    <li>category .....</li>
    <li>
    <ul>
    <li>forum 3</li>
    <li>forum 4</li>
    </ul>
    </li>
    </ul>



    Onto the forum view. This makes sense to be marked up as a table. Here you have rows containing the posts and columns of post status, thread title, replies, poster, date etc. This is clearly tabular data and should be represented as such


    Lastly the thread view logically seems like a list of posts in that thread. I did consider that we might have a table of posts here but I couldn't logically see the rows and columns that would make that table and kept coming back to a list of posts being the more logical construct.


    While the category/forum view and thread view *could* be marked up as tables I don't think it makes logical sense to do so. The table becomes the way to ensure that the content is layed out in the 'traditional forum look'. At this point you've got a table for layout not for marking up tabular data.


    That's my personal view of how things should be marked up. At this point you then apply CSS to make it look however you want.


    One thing I will say is that this is an intersting discussion. The subject of semantic HTML and analyzing content to ensure that markup is approapriately used is an interesting one - one I hope that we can spend more time with on all other modules.


    Personally i'm happy that this forum marks up its content using approapriate tags. That's not to say it's perfect - there's no such thing. For example there are far to many inline styles for liking. But overall the structure of the forum is sound and forms a basis from which the styling can evolve.


    I'd expect over coming years that other forum products including phpbb will have to consider their markup structure in order to comply with the every increasing legal requirements on accessibility.


    -Mark

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  • markwest
    markwest
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    Link to this post Posted: May 24, 2006 - 10:44 PM
    silverscout,

    What was the search term you used to trigger that error so I can attempt to reproduce. I think that this is just a step that was missed in the setup of the new server - i'll get drak on the case....

    -Mark

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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: May 25, 2006 - 12:25 AM
    Actually it is any search I do.
    I tried security. (looking for a refferal module but thats on the 3rd party thing)
    You can also try Black.

    I used my works PC which uses the Latest stable release of IE 6 and I have the latest IE 6 here at home.

    for further testing these are the steps I did.

    1. logged in.
    2. clicked search ontop.
    3. typed in the word black
    4. pressed search and left everything else default.





    edited by: silverscout, May 25, 2006 - 12:30 PM
  • pheski
    pheski
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    Link to this post Posted: May 26, 2006 - 06:50 AM

    pheski

    It does appear to be a consistent pattern with OmniWeb and it appears also to be related to the use of Ajax. (OmniWeb misbehaved with the Ajax on Nate's site, as well.) More information to follow, if and when I know more.edited by: pheski, May 02, 2006 - 05:08 PM



    OmniWeb (and Safari) use the WebKit engine. Firefox uses Gecko. There apparently are issues with WebKits handing Javascript/DOM. Safari has done some work arounds on the WebKit core so the Ajax here works (imperfectly) on Safari. OmniWeb has not done that - so OmniWeb (both 5.1.3, the current stable release, and the 5.5 public beta) chokes on the Ajax if you try to preview/post/edit here.

    As I understand, there is nothing the devs here can do about it - it is an OW issue.

    There has been some discussion in OW circles about the need to deal with this as Ajax is spreading.

    There was also discussion about the relative merits/problems of gecko versus webkit that went WAY over my head. Apparently WebKit is very good about CSS and has a very light footprint and doesn't carry any of the legacy problems from Netscape that gecko still has. (Just abstracting what I read - don't shoot the messenger...) Since WebKit is open source, I have to assume this will be resolved.

    (If you are a Mac user, you might want to pop over to OmniWeb and check out their browser or try it as a demo. And add your voice to the requests for Ajax support.)


    Update (10/29/2006):

    The current 5.5.1 beta1 release of OmniWeb has fixed the incompatibility with the Ajax flavor used here and OW now works flawlessly here. I posted that elsewhere but I wanted to make sure that folks who found this thread had current information so updated this old post. Sorry for the borderline cross-post.

    Peter



    edited by: pheski, Oct 29, 2006 - 09:48 AM

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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: May 30, 2006 - 07:22 PM
    Well I've been keeping an eye on things here since the change over last month. I've been glad to see some of the improvements that have been happening. Now I only get an annoying slowdown every 20 clicks or so...

    Anyways, there are a few things that have been mentioned that I think are key points to focus on. The biggest is that the PN team is trying to do the best they can and provide something great for all of us to use. I am tremendously in their debt for providing Postnuke. The second issue is that the community here on the PN forums wasn't ready to go from a production forums to a test / new forums... That's the main problem everyone had with the change. It's not that the change happened, it's that it happened with no warning and that it didn't work right. Something like an announcement before hand, "We're going to make the switch to pnForum on this coming date and we know that issues will arise. Please bear with us and provide input on how we can make it better once the change happen." No one here minds helping out with Postnuke, we all want it to continue to grow and become better. But I hope that the PN Team realizes that the general user of PN is thrown off by coming to a site that was working fine and then finding it different and broke.

    As far as the call to change back to PNphpBB2, I don't think that should happen and I'm a part of the PNphpBB development team. PNphpBB is not compliant with pnAPI or pnRender and while it is something that we are looking at for the future, it's not our focus now. Maybe things will change with phpbb3 once it is released and we make PNphpBB3 and compliance won't be so hard to integrate.

    The third thing I'll comment on in this thread is the topic of tables and accessibility. I have to say that I'm still scratching my head over this. I understand that it's been deemed to be necessary by people who are much more computer savy than I, but I have yet to see something done with CSS that can't be done just as well or better with tables. And that said, I've tried manytimes to learn how to make site layouts with CSS instead and all I've gotten was frustration. I've paid for books, tutorials, etc. and after countless hours spent studying them, my end conclusion is that CSS is not capable of providing the same functionality as tables. I have two sites in particular that I've been trying to change to using CSS instead of tables and have had to cower in defeat at the battle. If anyone has recommendations on good resources to help people here learn how to better make their sites meet accessibility standards, it would be really helpful to have them posted.

    It seems to me that the search issues have been fixed, great, thank you for the hard work in that.

    Also concerning accessibilty... it seems to me that Ajax doesn't really fit in with that yet... I'm not saying that I don't like the use of Ajax, but if there is a browser like OmniWeb that Mac users think is the best and want to use, and Ajax doesn't work there, then sites using Ajax don't really fit into the accessible category for me. My understanding of accessibility is that it makes all sites useable across a large variety of browsers... correct me if I'm wrong.

    Well, that's all I have to say about that now. Please keep up the good work on PN.

    ~Taz

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