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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 02:12 AM
    This topic has been split from this thread.

    rouxx - Ah ok...in either case, glad it worked out.

    These modGen scripts are falling out of the sky lately...! Not to cut your effort ctimmer...I'd stay away from them until one knows what they're doing in general...otherwise little is learned.

    Possible case scenario - I create mods using the generators and really start to become accustomed to it. The modGen project goes along for a good amount of time and then all of a sudden, no more development, no more contact...and the dev is history. That leaves me with a boatload of half-baked skills...and I'm no longer a module developer because I don't know where to start or how to write an init routine.

    Back in the day, I used FrontPage to develop visually...and I can't tell you how much it crippled my learning curve by my relying on buttons to get the job done instead of real knowledge. My morale of my own story: points and clicks should not replace thinking and learning.
  • Lobos

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 03:50 AM

    alarconcepts


    These modGen scripts are falling out of the sky lately...! Not to cut your effort ctimmer...I'd stay away from them until one knows what they're doing in general...otherwise little is learned.


    The main worry with my generator is the fact that it uses nvRender (smarty_lite) as the template engine - this is for duel compatibility with mdpro and postnuke. Other than that it will generate a pnapi compliant module that will help a user get a good idea of how a module works, they also can start working immediately on the module without having to learn by trial and error how to get it to install, etc.

    In regards to modGen, I haven't used it, but it does not have the issue of nvRender so I would say go for it.

    Other then using a mod generator you will be stuck using the example module and while this is good, I think it could be a bit "heavy" for a new user. I found it to be a bit heavy anyway when I first started fooling around with modules.

    -Lobos

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  • Lobos

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 03:55 AM

    alarconcepts


    Back in the day, I used FrontPage to develop visually...and I can't tell you how much it crippled my learning curve by my relying on buttons to get the job done instead of real knowledge. My morale of my own story: points and clicks should not replace thinking and learning.


    oops I didn't see this...

    I used Dreamweaver "back in the day", actually I still do, but never the design view. Actually I don't think I would of started web design if it wasn't for the visual aspect of dreamweaver.

    I think point and click has it's place, to help acheive something easily in the beginning. After this interest should kick in and then deeper exploration of the subject will take place.

    -Lobos

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  • ctimmer

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 04:13 AM
    Alar

    Normally I agree with you. This time you are criticizing what you don't understand.

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    These modGen scripts are falling out of the sky lately...!

    How many have you actually seen, I count 2.

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    Not to cut your effort ctimmer...

    Yes you are because I am presenting an alternative to your development method.

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    Possible case scenario

    Here's another:
    Possible case scenario - I create mods by hacking others work and really start to become accustomed to it. This works OK but then I want to develop a really unique module. Because it is unique, I'm lost because I can't just hack someone else's module. That leaves me with a boatload of half-baked skills...and I'm no longer a module developer because I don't know where to start or how to write an init routine.

    There is no reason ModGen couldn't be used in conjuction with your method of cut and paste.
  • Lobos

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 04:49 AM
    I think everything has it's place, ie use a mod generator to create a working, installable blank module so you can start fresh. Use an example type module to gain insight into different techniques. It is cool to hack up modules if you require something that is close to what the initial module does, but if you want to make something new it is better (IMHO) to use a module generator - this or hack out everything from an existing module, but htis takes time and you can do it instantly with a module generator :)

    -Lobos

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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 05:43 AM
    All,

    Just a lurker adding his $0.02 here.

    Firstly, I am assuming here, but RouXx wants to learn how to develop modules for PN so all RouXx was looking for was good documentation on a way to create modules. Both ctimmer and lobos simply suggested some tools they developed that create generic (blank) modules.

    Alar, why are you so against tools? Any tool, be it a calculator is just that...a tool. It should not stop one from learning how it does what it does, after all if you don't have a calculator you should still be able to do math.

    Tools have helped me to better understand what I need to do (I cut my teeth on FP also, but I liked it because it taught me what code to use in creating tables, etc. so as I better understood what it was doing I was able to easily transition away from it back to notepad).

    I've tried ctimmer's ModGen, and it work very well. It created a simple open framework and it's great. As a teaching tool it's good because you now have all the pieces in place...a basic framework to go from. I have not tried Lobos' version yet, but assume it does the same thing.

    Personally, I'd like to thank guys like ctimmer and lobos for their work. Lots of times, when people do 'cut-n-paste' development (i.e. using someone elses modules and changing code to suit) they leave in fragments of the initial code that has no place or meaning. That's such a big problem w/open source where you have groups just working off the backs of others (look at sugar crm vs. vtiger crm or even phpnuke vs. postnuke).

    RouXx, I wish you the best in your PN development.

    Stepping down off the soapbox.
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:06 AM
    My main concern is that, like many users with FP, people will only learn the "front end" stuff and not really learn what's going on behind the scenes. This allows users to create modules with security holes quite easily, because they may then feel like an accomplished programmer because they can get something to "work". I can appreciate the "no trial and error" aspect of modGens for getting the basics working...I too spent countless hours figuring it out...but that's what it takes to really get a feel for the "hows" and "whys" of what you're doing...and to achieve it in a secure way that will not compromise a PN install. I don't mean to say that either of your applications will create buggy or holey modules...but that they open the door for people to do just that. Everyone's (well ok, not everyone) a PHP programmer these days...not because they've got skills per se, but because PHP is so easy to learn that they can make it "work" pretty easily. This is one of PHP's best features, and yet, also one of it's biggest pitfalls. The language is "loose" as well, which also allows security issues to easily creep into an application unbeknownst to the "developer."

    Lobos, just to clarify, I think your "bridge" idea is valid and good...and will serve an excellent purpose for extending module usage. I also understand what you mean by saying that the Example module is too heavy, yet not heavy enough...I totally agree, though I don't have a solution. I also think you're right that interest should kick in at some point, but realistically speaking, I don't see that happening. As many WYSIWYG designers can attest: "If it works, who cares how." I don't mind a generator doing some of the work, but think it will be a crutch for the average user, just as the WYSIWYG editors are. Just look at what FP has done to the web...and to the field of design altogether. What if MS folded one day?...much of the web/computing world as the "general public" and "pseudo-developers" know it, would be lost. Hey wait...that's an awesome idea!!!

    I'm concerned that once one starts relying on something to get a task done, they'll only learn how to do it that way...and then if the dev. of the generator (or whatever app.) stops dev'ing it, then the person's "skills" are potentially terminated. Not to say that webvida is gonna poof and be gone...but I think this is a valid concern.

    ctimmer - I apologize if you thought I was cutting you down. It's a shame to squat over anyone's work, and that was not my intention at all. I'm sorry. I think giving people a way to generate modules is a good idea, no doubt. I just don't want to see a bunch of holey modules coming out for PostNuke is all...which could well happen. Not only could that undermine the security of a PostNuke install, but it could undermine the credibility of PostNuke modules (and we developers) as well. I was being facetious by saying that the modgens were falling out of the sky...but having a couple pop up over the span of maybe a couple weeks seems like a lot to me.

    I also want to clarify that I don't simply cut and paste modules together. I pore over every single character of my code to make sure I understand what's happening where...if I don't know something, I ask, research and test. While cut/paste mod. development can technically be done, it's a bad route to take because it's easy to leave out parts, or have parts that are un-needed altogether. That's not to say that I don't ever cut and paste though... In fact, by now I've got an extensive library of hand-coded functions and routines written specifically for PostNuke... If I need file uploads, image watermarking, dynamic data sorting...or whatever... I cut and paste it from my own library...where I know exactly what I'm getting, how it works, why it works, where it goes and how it fits into the bigger picture.

    Thanks for the feedback and good points of discussion guys.

    :)
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:23 AM
    The idea of the module generators falling into the "no longer developed" trap is certainly one of concern, though in general it's the same for all modules. I've lost track of the times that I've done a search for a module at the NOC and found that most of the results haven't been touched in years, even though they're really good ideas. If I ever leave this job, I don't know how much development on my projects module I'll continue to do. That's just one of the dangers of open source. :)
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:31 AM

    HOGBiker

    All,

    Just a lurker adding his $0.02 here.
    Firstly, thanks for chiming in on it. :)

    Quote

    Firstly, I am assuming here, but RouXx wants to learn how to develop modules for PN so all RouXx was looking for was good documentation on a way to create modules. Both ctimmer and lobos simply suggested some tools they developed that create generic (blank) modules.
    That's true... he was looking for docs and how-to...not actually looking for a tool. I simply made my own suggestions on where to get the best how-to info, the Example module.

    Quote

    Alar, why are you so against tools? Any tool, be it a calculator is just that...a tool. It should not stop one from learning how it does what it does, after all if you don't have a calculator you should still be able to do math.
    I'm not against tools by any means, and of course, I use hundreds of them everyday to make my life easier (both in virtual and in the "real" world) :) I'm only against using tools as crutches is all. You're right that tools shouldn't stop one from learning, but so often that's exactly what happens. The only thing learned, in some cases, is how to use the tool.

    Quote

    Tools have helped me to better understand what I need to do (I cut my teeth on FP also, but I liked it because it taught me what code to use in creating tables, etc. so as I better understood what it was doing I was able to easily transition away from it back to notepad).
    I too cut teeth on FP...but when faced with writing a form submission routine by hand (for instance) without using FP-extensions...I was lost...because I only learned how to use the tool, rather than learning how to create a proper routine. It was a crutch...but only until I realized it was such. And to be honest, I still us FP today...if I need a tabular layout in seconds, I open it up and do it (mostly because FP fires up so fast...and well, I paid for it.) Sometimes, I'll even work out a basic form in it, just to get a skeleton. I now consider my use of FP a convenience rather than a crutch, because I can do the same things without it, that I can do with it.

    Quote

    I've tried ctimmer's ModGen, and it work very well. It created a simple open framework and it's great. As a teaching tool it's good because you now have all the pieces in place...a basic framework to go from. I have not tried Lobos' version yet, but assume it does the same thing.
    Glad to hear some feedback on it and I hope that you take the code and inspect, mull over and learn about it.

    Quote

    Personally, I'd like to thank guys like ctimmer and lobos for their work. Lots of times, when people do 'cut-n-paste' development (i.e. using someone elses modules and changing code to suit) they leave in fragments of the initial code that has no place or meaning. That's such a big problem w/open source where you have groups just working off the backs of others (look at sugar crm vs. vtiger crm or even phpnuke vs. postnuke).
    Please see my other post...I only cut and paste my own personally developed routines. I feel like you guys are putting me and my work into the cut/paste/dev category, which it is not. I write most everything by hand, even if it would be easier to c/p, simply because I want to be able to do it with nothing more than a text editor, if it ever comes down to it. Doing it by hand helps to instill (ie, helps you easily remember) what exactly you need in a file, even if you can't use a "cheat sheet." I think that makes one a more valuable asset to any project in which they participate. It also helps the typing skills immensely and I can code faster than most people can type (just a guess, but I'm pretty fast...)

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    RouXx, I wish you the best in your PN development.
    We all do! :)

    Quote

    Stepping down off the soapbox.
    Feel free to step up anytime... Opinions and feedback are appreciated! Thanks for your input. :)
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:32 AM
    Alar,

    You concerns about developers going away, while valid is simply a point of fact for any tool! Hell, you can apply that to any tool/application (look at Apple and Sun: regarding either PCs or Operating Systems).

    Continnuity is not feasable for any software (I could start on Microsoft also, but I don't have that kind of time).

    The real culprit is documentation (or knowledge transfer if you prefer). As with most programmers (myself DEFINATELY included here), we tend to assume people know what we're doing so we don't document well enough or at all!

    If a developer decides to stop development of something normally there isn't enough documentation to continue development afterwards (look at the fact that we still really don't know what tool(s) were used to build the pyramids).

    People relying on a tool (albeit becoming a slave to the tool), is simple human nature just like my procrastination on my own websites/documentation.

    The only way to stop the kind of behavior you are concerned about is to remove tools altogether so only the ones who can make something are the people who can master the skills, but now we're getting into union mentality and I for one don't want a 'programmers union' or the thought of one <shudder>.

    So how do we help people like RouXx? We create tools...and the circle begins anew.

    Simply...you can't fix the lemmings so don't try.</shudder>
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:39 AM

    Quote

    People relying on a tool (albeit becoming a slave to the tool), is simple human nature just like my procrastination on my own websites/documentation.
    I don't see that as human nature...I see it more as learned behaviour. No disrespect intended. I too procrastinate far longer than I should, but by no means is it human nature in my opinion...there's million out there who don't procrastinate, but we never hear about them...

    Quote

    The only way to stop the kind of behavior you are concerned about is to remove tools altogether so only the ones who can make something are the people who can master the skills, but now we're getting into union mentality and I for one don't want a 'programmers union' or the thought of one <shudder>. </shudder>
    This is not true. The way to stop this behaviour is to not do it. That's not to say never use tools. That is to say that the continued behaviour lies on the steps of each individual. I guess I'm just lucky having been able to master so many skills. ;)

    EDIT: By "behaviour" I'm referring to using tools as crutches as opposed to using them as convenience items.
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:42 AM
    BTW...groovy avatar... You obviously have a "voice" so hopefully we'll be seeing more of that avatar 'round these parts...

    Welcome aboard!

    :)
  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 06:52 AM
    Dude I think what you're talking about is accountability rather than 'individuality vs. behavior' which is a completly different topic...and one that can be debated for decades. I'm going to drop that one altogether.

    However, regarding programmers especially in the open source world that is not the case at all. There is an axiom that all code has already been developed and that programmers are just solving problems using the developed code.

    I'm sorry if the c/p statement offiended, it was not meant as such. If you are going in line by line, then you are less than 1% of the programmers I have met and worked with in my career. Not to toot my own horn, but I've even been prviliged enough to manage programmers and most use tools or pieces gleaned from other sources to solve a development issue.

    Very few people who call themselves developers or programmers know how to code using simple things like pen & paper or a whiteboard.

    As before I understand and agree with your sentiments, but if I worried about the contunied development of a tool or program then I'd have to develop it myself or not use something.

    Something I simply do not have time to do.

    Good luck to everyone...I'm headed back to the underworld (lurking).
  • Lobos

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 07:04 AM
    John,

    I am taking in what you are saying, but I don't get it - how is using a module generator going to cause users to pick up bad habits? I would think there should be more concern about people using existing modules as a base - ie, if the orginal module has poor security then the resulting hacked up version will also. With a module generated module you are starting from scratch...

    So tell me, if you are going to start a module from scratch, how do you go about it (in regards to file structure, install, etc), do you take an existing module and cut all the code then do a find and replace on the module name or do you write all from scratch? Both of these methods are going to take time and the exact same outcome will be acheived by a module generator (if written properly), instantly...

    It doesn't matter a bit if the dev site disapears, you will still have the generator and if the file structure chages for postnuke, well you will just have to learn a new way (like everyone else will have to). So really it is no issue.

    just my 2 cents...

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  • **unknown user**

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    Link to this post Posted: Sep 27, 2005 - 07:06 AM
    I don't agree with your first paragraph, except that to debate it is pointless. We can civilly agree to disagree and I'm perfectly content.

    Quote

    I'm sorry if the c/p statement offiended, it was not meant as such. If you are going in line by line, then you are less than 1% of the programmers I have met and worked with in my career. Not to toot my own horn, but I've even been prviliged enough to manage programmers and most use tools or pieces gleaned from other sources to solve a development issue.

    No offense taken...just wanted to clarify my own method. (Not line by line though...character by character... I subscribe to the "nip it in the bud" theory, and it's working pretty good...my work has a very, very low instance of requested support as a result.) Yes, I too use tools...just like any programmer would. I wanted to make the distinction between using tools and being slaves to them; there's a big difference.

    Quote

    Very few people who call themselves developers or programmers know how to code using simple things like pen & paper or a whiteboard.
    I know what you mean. While I've not written much on a whiteboard, it's good to know that I could if I had to. What's paper? ;)

    Quote

    As before I understand and agree with your sentiments, but if I worried about the contunied development of a tool or program then I'd have to develop it myself or not use something.
    My point isn't about tools... it's about instilling a belief in unqualified "developers" that that's all there is to it.

    ...and speaking of security as we were...

    THIS JUST IN: 2 new vulnerabiltities found in pn.760! I received an email about it from the Security List, but it's probably posted on the news site as well.

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