Zikula Community

• remmingtonshowdown
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: May 22, 2004
  • Last visit: Apr 03, 2010
  • Posts: 451

  Posted: Dec 06, 2004 - 06:27 PM

  Hey all,
  
  So based on some exposure I recieved through a site I built for my cycling team for free I have come across a prospective client who wishes to have a postnuke website built.
  
  I am not really a pnDev, I just play around and build sites that need to be built. I am fairly proficient in PHP and postnuke and have yet to come to any problems that I haven't been able to solve some way or another.
  
  The long and short of this is what would/could/should I charge for a site.
  
  Fully customized theme, full pagesetter/photoshare implimentations/at least 10-15 modules all requiring some level of modification. Full support. I understand that this is an impossible question to answer but I'm a total noob when it comes to charging and was just looking for some direction.
  
  This is the type of site I would be building: http://qcp.binaryoven.com (almost finished)
  
  If you want to login and LOOK (but not touch-please)
  login: lou waugaman
  pass: goxracing
  
  Or
  
  http://www.xxxracing.binaryoven.com (still in development)
  
  login: mario cippolini
  pass: sesame

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Dec 06, 2004 - 06:43 PM

  As much as you think it will be worth to them.
  
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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 30, 2010
  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Dec 07, 2004 - 01:48 AM

  mhalbrook

  As much as you think it will be worth to them.

  
  
  That's a bit vague...
  
  I have implemented 3 or 4 full site projects using postnuke, mdpro, etc.
  
  Be carefull it is never as easy as you think it will be and it always takes longer than you thought it would...
  
  Intitial planning/consultation:
  
  Find out exactly what the client wants, DO NOT LEAVE IT OPEN ENDED - even if it takes 100 emails, get on paper exactly what the client will require on the site and advise that further features/modifications, etc will result in added charges. From this you will create a project timeline / plan and you and your client will agree that this is all the requirements that you will be quoting for.
  
  I would charge around $US50.00 for this phase, that is if the client knows what he wants. If you need to create the solution for him you should charge considerably more...
  
  The art of Quote:
  
  When quoting it is a good idea to break down your clients requirements into easily describable parts. ie grahic design, theme design, individual module installation, module modification, CMS installation, etc, etc and price them individually. This makes it look better when you present the quote to your client as they can get a better look at what work goes into deploying a postnuke site. Remember they probably have no idea of what you need to do - it is, in many cases, a kind of "magic" to them - some think it's very difficult, some think it's very easy (best that they fall into the first category).
  
  Rule: You must stick to your quote - so it is important that you think this out carefully.
  
  Pricing
  
  This is all about time. Think about the amount you wish to be payed per hour taking into account the fact that you can make this site and you client can't - that basically means you worth more than $10 an hour (I would push to the 20-30 mark, maybe beyond... now work out how long it takes to do each of the requirements that you worked into your project plan and calculate your price. Now add an additional 10% on top of that to pay for for the gremlins.
  
  
  
  -Lobos
  
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  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Dec 07, 2004 - 07:27 AM

  Lobos

  
  That's a bit vague...
  

  
  Deliberatly so. One should price based on value, not the clock. Obviously, you want to use a clock to make a base price you won't go lower on.
  

  Quote

  Be carefull it is never as easy as you think it will be and it always takes longer than you thought it would...

  
  Yep, I started on one last week, thought it would take me a couple hours to convert the exisiting layout to a theme, another half hour or so to set up the Pagesetter publication types needed, and two or three hours to move the content, as I was working on the content move, I realized that some of the stuff will need to be redesigned, a straight cut and paste won't work. I estimated about $300 to do the job, and I hit the time mark that was based on and am about 50% done. Now I'm waiting to hear back from them on a mix of static (using DynaMod) and Pagesetter based.
  

  Quote

  
  20-30 mark, maybe beyond

  
  Try $50+ I've only lost about 10% of the bids I put out on price, the rest of them were time frame reasons, they needed it quicker than I thought I'd be able to deliver it. Also use an hourly rate as a base, but price based on the project and it's value to the customer.
  
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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 825

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 06:14 AM

  I just got stiffed on a website I did. I wont disclose the name, but I got burned. I trusted the guy, which I shouldnt have, and will change my practices to match this skeptisim. Just to help you out, common business practices state that the website design should be payed 1/2 upfront, and 1/2 on delivery. That means you should develop the site on a machine you control, and then move it over to your customers site when development is completed. Also, you should include a license to all code you develop. This protects yourself from liability, and also can provide protection for customers who want to burn you. Dont give your customers the right to distribute the code you provide, but to only use it. Also retain rights to use the code you write on other projects. When I find a proper license, I will share it to all of you.
  
  Hope this helps.
  Michael Parisi

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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
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  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 07:09 AM

  In regards to the 1/2 upfront and other 1/2 on delivery - I only do this for $1k plus projects, anything under this price I want 100% in advance. I wish you would the share the name of this low life with us, just so we don't get shafted as well....
  
  edit - I must say I have never been shafted before, the only person that has ever ripped me off is myself...
  
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  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 07:37 AM

  I do 50/50 also, tho if it's a long time client, or one I control the hosting for, I'll be flexible on the terms.
  
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• MMaynard
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 15, 2003
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1221

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 07:39 AM

  I've gotten ripped 3 times in the past two months by people cancelling Paypal payments. :?
  So I had to institute a policy of not taking payments through non-verified PayPal accounts..
  
  It is hard to believe that people will rip you off for a 10.00 theme but I guess it just shows how low humans can go..
  
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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
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  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 07:45 AM

  MMaynard

  I've gotten ripped 3 times in the past two months by people cancelling Paypal payments. :?
  So I had to institute a policy of not taking payments through non-verified PayPal accounts..
  
  It is hard to believe that people will rip you off for a 10.00 theme but I guess it just shows how low humans can go..

  
  
  What are they doing, chargebacks? or cancelling bank uploads?
  
  90% of my custom is from unverified paypal account so I would be careful stopping access for unverified...
  
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  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Senior
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 2204

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 10:32 AM

  what's the time limit on chargebacks? ..24hrs? I've written a few doo-dads..nonsense prevention scripts, if you need any input, let me know.
  
  I'm doing a site right now, top to bottom, osCommerce.. and I don't think I'll charge more than $150-200 .. it's got a bit of custom code as well.. I work with her which justifies the price tag.. very nice lady and deserving of a break.. but it's been a pain in me arse.. gotta look into the OSC AT thing ;) ..might make the templating considerably easier.. sure couldn't get any less intuitive.
  
  -IR

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• MMaynard
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 15, 2003
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  • Posts: 1221

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 11:05 AM

  All someone has to do is refute the charges with Paypal and they ALWAYS take the buyers side on electronic transfers of material.
  There is no sellers protection for electronic stuff...
  
  One was a valid one where someones PayPal information was stolen but the other two were just people refuting the charges after I sent them the download links.
  So better watch it.
  
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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
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  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 12:11 PM

  InvalidResponse

  
  I'm doing a site right now, top to bottom, osCommerce.. and I don't think I'll charge more than $150-200 .. it's got a bit of custom code as well.. I work with her which justifies the price tag.. very nice lady and deserving of a break.. but it's been a pain in me arse.. gotta look into the OSC AT thing ;) ..might make the templating considerably easier.. sure couldn't get any less intuitive.
  
  -IR

  
  
  LOL I might start a business around your business - charge my fees and get you to do all the work ;) I tell you I would still make a considerable profit :) (I know, it's a friend - only kidding (well almost).
  
  I think chargebacks can be initiated months after the payment - for sure I know it is longer than 24 hours...
  
  edit: oh you can also use the bts template system for oscommerce as well - just remember, whatever templateing you use, integrate it BEFORE you start adding contributions. F*&# OSC sucks...
  
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  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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• nate_02631
  
  

  • Rank: Senior
  • Registered: Sep 22, 2003
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 2774

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 12:32 PM

  InvalidResponse

  I'm doing a site right now, top to bottom, osCommerce.. and I don't think I'll charge more than $150-200 .. it's got a bit of custom code as well..

  
  $150-200 bucks?! I don't know about y'all but I've got a mortgage to pay and this "mowin' the lawn" pocket change doesn't cut it. Either you bill yourself out @ $5 bucks an hour or you can do a site in two hours flat!
  
  I think mhalbrook said aptly that you charge based on the utility that the site will provide and not an hourly basis. Though you work in the hours somehow but also need to provide for things such as future support, etc...
  
  I don't do any website for less than $1,000 bucks and for an oSCsite, which routinely needs a lot of tweaking to get some extra functionality and a decent layout, I'd charge a whole lot more...
  
  On a side note, I'm holding out for oSC MS3 which will supposedly have a much improved templating engine built in...
  
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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Senior
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 2204

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 12:42 PM

  Lobos

  
  LOL I might start a business around your business - charge my fees and get you to do all the work ;) I tell you I would still make a considerable profit :)

  
  haha.. she's lucky I like her.. haha.. I feel bad asking for any money from her.. but work is work. and $1.50 an hour's not bad.. (in Laos) LOL
  
  

  Lobos

  
  I think chargebacks can be initiated months after the payment - for sure I know it is longer than 24 hours...
  

  
  I know in credit industry it's 90 days..so the same may apply.
  
  

  Lobos

  
  edit: oh you can also use the bts template system for oscommerce as well - just remember, whatever templateing you use, integrate it BEFORE you start adding contributions. F*&# OSC sucks...

  
  cool features, cool hacks, but it's a mess.

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Senior
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 2204

  Posted: Dec 09, 2004 - 12:51 PM

  nate_02631

  $150-200 bucks?! I don't know about y'all but I've got a mortgage to pay and this "mowin' the lawn" pocket change doesn't cut it. Either you bill yourself out @ $5 bucks an hour or you can do a site in two hours flat!

  
  hahahha.. well i'm only 15 so it's not bad. it's more than I make mowing lawns in the summer. LOL LOL hahaha.. kidding.. of course. I've got a real job. that's the one that pays for the house, the lawnmower and the kid to push it.. this is just a hobby ;)
  
  agree with the ms3 thing.. should be a lot better. it'll probably break all of those contribs though.. haha

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