Zikula Community

• TMoS
  
  

  • Rank: Freshman
  • Registered: Oct 13, 2004
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 63

  Posted: Nov 16, 2004 - 08:14 PM

  i think we should place Project Progress barr for postnuke 0.8
  
  in orde we all (i mean comunity) could see how things goes on
  
  what functions are implemented?
  
  what problems developers are solving now?
  
  what dificulties stands in our way?
  
  i think this will help to inform users about the PostNuke 0.8 development
  
  dont hesitate to voice your opinion
  
  best regards
  
  --
  http://www.Lithuanianjoomla.COM

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 135

  Posted: Nov 19, 2004 - 03:59 PM

  I think perhaps you should search the forums. This has been suggested several times, and several times the team has said it is a waste of time and does not serve any real purpose. Personally, I think it does serve a purpose to at least give some general timeline for releases and features. The value of a piece of software comes from more than just the code. The documentation, community, and future of the product are important in determing if its right for you.

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Nov 19, 2004 - 04:34 PM

  If it can't be reliable, then a progress bar or timeframe is of no worth.
  
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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 825

  Posted: Nov 19, 2004 - 05:35 PM

  Unfortunately Open Source applications do not progress on a predictable schedule...
  
  A) no one is keeping a schedule
  B) it may never be done:)

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1193

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 01:44 PM

  mgp7419

  Unfortunately Open Source applications do not progress on a predictable schedule...
  
  A) no one is keeping a schedule
  B) it may never be done:)

  
  This is only true with this Open Source application but not with other Open Source Projects. Many Open Source projects have schedules, progress reports and related info. And some are predictable and some aren't.
  
  A schedule is dependent on the project manager knowing how to prepare and manage a schedule AND that the project manager wants to do so.
  
  In this case, the project manager neither knows how nor wants to.

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 03:12 PM

  Or maybe the PM knows that the availablity of the developers doesn't make that feesable.
  
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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1193

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 05:10 PM

  mhalbrook

  Or maybe the PM knows that the availablity of the developers doesn't make that feesable.

  
  You're mis-quoting the PN project manager in that she often claims that she does *NOT* know the availability of the developers. But you've also made my point - she has enough information to be able to make some estimate or forecast.
  
  The availability (or unavailability) of developers can be determined simply by them communicating with the project manager. There are many similar situations where this has been done effectively, efficiently and successfully. The only reason that it isn't done here is because the project manager won't do it.
  
  This is just like saying that since we can't forecast the weather with absolute accuracy, we shouldn't make any forecasts. Yes, the seasonal forecast only provides general guidelines that people can use to plan their vacations. And the 2 week forecast is only 70-80% right but you can still use it to plan when to wash the car. And the 24-48 hour forecast is usually accurate enough to determine how to dress and whether to bring an umbrella.
  
  No one expects any more accuracy in the PN project schedule than in weather forecasts. And there are plenty of tools and methodologies available to make it easy for the PN project manager to be able to provide that level of accuracy *without* burdening herself or the developers.

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• Slugger
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 11, 2003
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1104

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 07:14 PM

  mhalbrook

  Or maybe the PM knows that the availablity of the developers doesn't make that feesable.

  
  
  Michael, you're a smart guy. I really can't believe you don't know what it means when you say there are not enough developers.
  
  Project management is more like Craig says. It all comes down to results. Craig is right. Craig has been right for a long time.
  
  If the PM is not effectively communicating. If the PM isn't evoking confidence. If the PM isn't defining deliverables. People aren't going to get involved.
  
  If the project doesn't have goals, there's a lack of leadership. If it does have goals but can't achieve them, it's a leadership problem.
  
  Put a corporate spin on in but a lack of enough developers is just another sign Craig is right-PostNuke lacks competent, capable leadership.
  
  Slugger

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 08:09 PM

  Slugger,
  One need only understand 2 facts.
  
  1. No date will be given until we near an RC stage for .8. That's what has been decided.
  
  2. For better or worse, the leadership has already made it clear that they will not step down.
  
  Case closed, you may not like it, I may not like it, but that's the way it is, and constantly arguing the same point everytime it comes up is not productive at all.
  
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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1193

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 08:40 PM

  mhalbrook,
  
  I think that slugger is fully aware of the facts. He is only responding to TMoS, the originator of this thread. I don't think slugger (or anyone) expects PN management to step down.
  
  And I think that we all agree with what you've said - that the PN project manager has decided that she won't announce any dates.
  
  And it was you that brought up the idea that the PN management team should step down. Actually, I don't agree with you. I think it would be better if they listened to suggestions and tried to expand their perspective and extend their skills sets.

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Nov 23, 2004 - 09:24 PM

  I rasied it THIS time, but this line of discussion always comes around to it, so I headed it off at the pass so to speak.
  
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• Slugger
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 11, 2003
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1104

  Posted: Nov 24, 2004 - 04:09 AM

  I know some people cringe when this type of discussion gets started but, frankly, these discussions are healthy. It's always important for the PM to be under the looking glass because their contribution, or lack thereof, impacts everything and everyone associated with the project.
  
  Delusion is pathologic.
  
  Surely we can agree there are credibility issues that would undermine the value of a progress bar so maybe that's not so important right now.
  
  Maybe the poll should ask, not whether we should have a progress bar, but if the PM should step down. All leaders need to earn a vote of confidence and accountability is the very definition of leadership.
  
  Slugger

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1193

  Posted: Nov 24, 2004 - 06:16 AM

  Slugger

  .... All leaders need to earn a vote of confidence and accountability is the very definition of leadership.

  
  Leaders only need to have the confidence of the property owners. No one else matters. Since the PN project manager has the approval of the owner of the postnuke domain names, that's all she needs.
  
  As mhalbrook has pointed out, the PN project management is not going to change. If you can't live with them, then you need to do what others have done and create your own fork (such as Xaraya and MD-Pro).
  
  Forks are the most extreme examples of the community rejecting the leadership. But in less obvious ways the community is voting their confidence on the PN leadership all the time. This can be seen by comparing the number of daily forum postings between 2004 and 2003 or by comparing the number of module, block and theme announcements on *.postnuke.com.
  
  As there has been a dramatic decrease in all of these numbers, the community has essentially voted "no confidence" in the PN leadership by deciding not to participate. Eventually, the only people left will be the PN team themselves. (Which suits them just fine.) Everyone else will be where the action is. (Somewhere other than PN.)
  
  And you can try to argue with me about that all you want. But you don't need to convince me, you need to convince all those people who have decided not to join this community.

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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 30, 2010
  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Nov 24, 2004 - 10:36 AM

  Well I have noticed a drop in my traffic when I release something - when I first started using google adsense around a year or 2 ago I used to get around 6000 page impressions per day in the week after releasing something at postnuke.com - now I am lucky to get over 2000 with the spike. This demonstrates to me a definite drop in users :(
  
  --
  -Lobos
  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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• Lobos
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Dec 02, 2002
  • Last visit: Apr 30, 2010
  • Posts: 1474

  Posted: Nov 24, 2004 - 10:45 AM

  Well if you look at this graphs there is definetly something wrong:
  
  http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?&range=2y&size=large&compare_sites=&y=p&URL=http://www.postnuke.com#top
  
  Look at all the 2y history graphs and you will notice that postnuke was building with a healthy growth until about halfway or early last year (2003), what happened at this time to cause it's decline?
  
  --
  -Lobos
  Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

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