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Project Progress for postnuke 0.8

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**unknown user**

Rank: Expert

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1193
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 08:48 AM

HammerHead
Maybe it is more a problem with marketing, than management?

Yes, you can say that it's a problem with marketing by the management. ;)

You could say it was marketing, but I wouldn't try to over-complicate things - it really is just a matter of communication between the PN team and the community...
**unknown user**

Rank: Expert

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1193
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 08:58 AM

Zoom
Would you substantiate this claim with some verifiable data please?

From this thread: http://forums.postnu…pic&p=125813#125813

Quote

...compare the number of posts to the PN sites during last month and a year ago, September 2003. I looked at the pnmodules site. In September 2003, we had 61 announcements. Last month we only had 30. (And that doesn't take into account the significant number of announcements that were posted on August 30th, 2003!)

That's just one example, but the same trends hold for blocks.postnuke.com themes.postnuke.com and forums.postnuke.com. Drak could provide more comprehensive and authoritative results with a simple SQL query....
**unknown user**

Rank: Expert

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1193
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 09:43 AM

mhalbrook

Actually, I don't think confidence in PN is the biggest problem, appreciation by the community is.

No, I think the biggest problem is appreciation of 3rd party developers by the PN team.

Quote
Jorn-Lind for example has provided us Pagesetter, for free, and I see people whining about the documentation, his lack of support in the forums ect. He doesn't make $ off of Pagesetter, but people expect to get support that paid programs give.

I think that it's reasonable to expect 3rd party developers to provided documentation as part of their modules, blocks and themes. Just because it's open source isn't an excuse to not do proper development. (And I'm sure you've seen my documentation for statistics, MTmodular theme, Short URLs, etc.)

On the other hand, as a 3rd party developer who does try to provide support for his stuff, I have come to terms with how the community reacts to my efforts. After several interesting experiences, I realized that I have no control how people react to my work. And the best approach is to forget the negative comments and celebrate the positive ones.

And if someone does 3rd party development just for the appreciation by the community, they'll get burned out really quickly.

Quote
There are plenty of us out here that are willing to support PostNuke with 3rd Party development, but most of us have other things to consider. I'm behind on my existing 3rd Party developments as it is, I'm not going to take on another project for free.

I don't want you to take on another project! I want there to be enough 3rd party developers so that you don't feel you have to sign up for another project.
**unknown user**

Rank: Freshman

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 80
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 04:44 PM

Lobos
Zoom

Are you saying PN is responsible for 3rd party viability?

Well I think they would ignore the needs of 3rd party devs at their peril - otherwise PN could go the way Envolution, ie lose 90% of developers and users and have the need for their management to lurk in the forums of other opensource projects to hopefully, in some way lure a few users to their software...

Zoom

ColdRolledSteel

Either way, it's because the community doesn't believe in the viability of PN anymore.

Would you substantiate this claim with some verifiable data please?

Zoom

Just have a look thru this forum; I am sure you will find some "verifiable data".

Kindest regards,
Lobos

This is exactly the kind of response which does drive developers and other people away from open source projects...some dipshit slinging insults and trying to push peoples buttons....considering a large portion of Envolution's code has wound up in PostNuke and I don't see ANY of yours you might wanna shut yer trap.

Sincerely,
Zoom
**unknown user**

Rank: Freshman

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 80
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 05:01 PM

ColdRolledSteel
Zoom
Would you substantiate this claim with some verifiable data please?

From this thread: http://forums.postnu…pic&p=125813#125813

I read every post in the 5 page thread you referenced. I counted about 8 or 9 different posters with 3 posters popping in to either say goodbye to you or make a pithy comment which didn't address the specific problem you mentioned here. In fact one guy even said in that thread you (meaning the posters in the thread) needed to figure out what your actually arguing about.

Respectfully Craig this isn't verifiable data that the community has problems with the leadership of PostNuke. This is simply an example of where you evidently started a thread announceing you wouldnt be posting in the forums anymore because PostNuke implemented a policy back in June about making some sort of announcements in the forums.

So my question to you still stands and has not been answered. You said "the community doesn't believe in the viability of PN anymore" and the link you provided does not substantiate that claim. I do recognize that you evidently have a personal issue with the way PostNuke's leaders manages things, but to make blanket statements like "the community doesn't believe in the viability of PN anymore" is like Chicken Little running around crying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling".

Zoom
**unknown user**

Rank: Freshman

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 80
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 05:26 PM

ColdRolledSteel

...compare the number of posts to the PN sites during last month and a year ago, September 2003. I looked at the pnmodules site. In September 2003, we had 61 announcements. Last month we only had 30. (And that doesn't take into account the significant number of announcements that were posted on August 30th, 2003!)

That's just one example, but the same trends hold for blocks.postnuke.com themes.postnuke.com and forums.postnuke.com. Drak could provide more comprehensive and authoritative results with a simple SQL query....

If you are drawing conclusions based on raw numbers such as number of posts and number of articles to infer something you are committing a cardinal error in your methodology. You simply cannot take the number of published articles (announcements) in 2003 and infer inadaquate or inferior leadership/marketing by the PM and other PM leaders.

You also have to factor in the fact that significant changes to the code tree have taken place which require that most modules/blocks/themes be recoded to meet API specs. This is a significant change which requires all PN developers (including third partys) to learn some new methods and recode theie own stuff to continue to work correctly...that alone is a no-brainer reason why announcements would drop off.

In my opinion a lot of so called developers in the nuke world are doing nothing more than hacks to preexisiting code and do not have the skill or knowledge base to rewrite their hacks. Another portion may simply not have the time or inclination to invest time into rewrites because of other responsibilities. Who knows? But I do know that one cannot draw conclusions such as you seem to have drawn based on the number of published announcments or lack thereof.

I come from an environment where peer review and evaluation is done using acceptable standards for scientific review and evaluation. Breaking down your URL you used as verifiable proof shows two glaring problems. 1) you have about 8 or 9 people posting in that forum...a bare minimum of 30 is the minimum unique subjects required by any scientific standard to even have a place to start drawing a respectible conclusion. 2) The only type of data you could hope to harvest from a forum is nominal data...and even then the quality of the data will be questionable since at least 4 of the people posting in the forum you specified have a direct interest in seeing PostNuke succeed or fail.

Bottom line...you have a right to your opinion, but you do not have a right to claim you know what the community thinks or doesnt think when you say "the community doesn't believe in the viability of PN anymore". That is obstructionist and unfair to other people who may not agree with you.

Zoom
**unknown user**

Rank: Expert

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1193
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 05:40 PM

Zoom
Respectfully Craig this isn't verifiable data that the community has problems with the leadership of PostNuke.

Hmm.... I have posted verifiable data that the September 2004 announcements on mods.postnuke.com were 30 and the announcements posted in September 2003 were 61. If you think that this was an anomoly, then feel free to post other verifiable data.

Now, you say that this data isn't sufficient to prove that the community has problems with the PN leadership. Okay, fine by me.

But, it does say that the active community (those who post announcements) is shrinking.

Yes, the sky is falling. You and the rest of the team can argue the facts all you want. But if you take too long, your community will be nothing more than you and the PN team.

And you can pick on me all you want, it won't make any difference. (I knew that you, or someone else would.)
**unknown user**

Rank: Expert

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1193
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 05:56 PM

Zoom,

You could take the numbers from any other of the postnuke sites and you would get similar results. You could compare the number of forum posts between any month of 2004 and the same month of 2003 and see the same results.

And we could argue the exact reasons that the numbers changed between the two periods. If you look at when the policy changed, you'll see a significant drop at that point, but it continued to go down.

And of course, there were other reasons for the declines (and specific dips). But the fundamental fact is that instead of growing, postnuke is shrinking. You cannot show any verifiable data that supports your position. The only verifiable data shows just the opposite.

But if you want a better barometer of activity, why not use the forums.postnuke.com, as there's less restriction of postings there. I don't have access to the MySQL database to run the queries to give more explicit and comprehensive numbers but I know that the forums used to have dozens to hundreds of posts every day. Now we only have 12-30 posts per day.

And the decline in postings happened before I made my alarming claims. So you can't blame me for it. But you can go ahead and blame me for everything from now on. Yeah, that's the ticket. It's all my fault.
**unknown user**

Rank: Expert

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1193
Posted: Nov 27, 2004 - 06:01 PM

Zoom,

Let me sum up your position:

1. It's my fault for any decline because I contradict the public position.

2. There are fewer 3rd party module announcements because 3rd party developers are just hackers who don't know how to code for an API.

Wow, a great position to have. It's not your fault, it's everyone else's.
Lobos

Rank: Expert

Registered: Dec 02, 2002

Last visit: Apr 30, 2010

Posts: 1474
Posted: Nov 28, 2004 - 02:12 AM

Zoom
...considering a large portion of Envolution's code has wound up in PostNuke and I don't see ANY of yours you might wanna shut yer trap.

Well, well nice words from the Project Manager of an open source software project, such a demonstration of wisdom and diplomacy...

No wonder envolution.com is a ghost town

Back to the Topic:

TMoS
i think we should place Project Progress barr for postnuke 0.8

in orde we all (i mean comunity) could see how things goes on

what functions are implemented?

what problems developers are solving now?

what dificulties stands in our way?

i think this will help to inform users about the PostNuke 0.8 development

dont hesitate to voice your opinion

best regards

Firstly, in a project such as this where all development is done for free a progress bar could not IMHO be implemented without the permission of the developers and would not be accurate anyway; becuase most devs are not coding postnuke to any set schedule.

Maybe if this was a commercial initiative with paid programmers some type of progress indicator could be required, but this is not a commercial project so there is no obligation on the part of anyone involved to work to any kind of schedule other than their own schedule, although at times devs may pull together and commit around a special time such as a new release or nasty bug in the code, this committment would be unlikely to last for any meaningfull amount of time.

Anyway I would like a progress bar, but there is no way in the world that it could possibly be accurate so I voted against it.

-Lobos

--
-Lobos
Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment
**unknown user**

Rank: Freshman

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 80
Posted: Nov 28, 2004 - 05:03 AM

ColdRolledSteel
Zoom,

Let me sum up your position:

1. It's my fault for any decline because I contradict the public position.

I never said anyone was at fault for anything. Maybe you should stick to summing up your own position and stop trying to sum up other people's positions. Especially when your inaccurate at best.

ColdRolledSteel

2. There are fewer 3rd party module announcements because 3rd party developers are just hackers who don't know how to code for an API.

Wow, a great position to have. It's not your fault, it's everyone else's.

Again, no one said you or anyone else for that matter was at fault for anything. In addition if you are going to continue to attempt to sum up others people's positions at least quote the individual verbatum because you have taken my comment waayyyy out of context.

Zoom
**unknown user**

Rank: Freshman

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 80
Posted: Nov 28, 2004 - 05:15 AM

ColdRolledSteel
Zoom
Respectfully Craig this isn't verifiable data that the community has problems with the leadership of PostNuke.

Hmm.... I have posted verifiable data that the September 2004 announcements on mods.postnuke.com were 30 and the announcements posted in September 2003 were 61. If you think that this was an anomoly, then feel free to post other verifiable data.

Now, you say that this data isn't sufficient to prove that the community has problems with the PN leadership. Okay, fine by me.

No problem so far....

ColdRolledSteel

But, it does say that the active community (those who post announcements) is shrinking.

Now you have a problem.

You need to substantiate how you draw this conclusion. Just because the number of published announcements decline does not necessarily indicate the active community is shrinking. Your speculation does not indicate fact.

ColdRolledSteel

Yes, the sky is falling. You and the rest of the team can argue the facts all you want. But if you take too long, your community will be nothing more than you and the PN team.

Because you said so?

ColdRolledSteel

And you can pick on me all you want, it won't make any difference. (I knew that you, or someone else would.)

It's not picking on someone to ask them to substantiate their claims with something other than hyperbole and speculation.

Zoom
**unknown user**

Registered: Mar 16, 2002

Last visit: Oct 21, 2009

Posts: 1097
Posted: Nov 28, 2004 - 07:17 AM

There goes my unconstructive comment :

This is so zzzzzzzz... I feel old as this conversation is coming back every 2 months minimum now... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

And my constructive one :

I voted against a progress bar for the many reasons already mentioned (Lobos got the right words) and I would add that a progress bar in this type of situation would only stress the actual team to urge things... and have big chances to fail to have a solid product.

Some do not code often but are still there and watch what is going on. Still, their presence have their importance but stressing them with progress bars and twinkies like that can drove them away if they feel it bad.

And that is, whatever some "great minds" think about the management (god this is getting annoying)...

For the record, I have project managing background and still do some managing for my work so it's not necessairy to come to me defending the joy of progress bars, deadlines, etc... I know the drill...

And I know most of the time where there should be a colorful progress bar and when there shouldn't be one.

And I feel that right now, a progress bar would only ease some people for a time... but will anger them more later when the bar will probably prove to be meaningless.

For me, PostNuke is going fine and has been for a time now... can go better but is already getting better, progress is made and this type of recurring discussions bring nothing new.

The end...
HalbrookTech

Rank: Developer

Registered: Dec 31, 1969

Last visit: Jun 01, 2010

Posts: 6859
Posted: Nov 28, 2004 - 10:54 AM

This bickering about PM styles and who/what is/isn't good is old, worn out, and has become pointless, Thread locked and future threads on the same vein will be locked much faster. Some times it's best to let sleeping dogs lie.

--
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