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  • vworld

    Lobos, these lists have always been public nothing new here.

    With respect to my comments in the email you pointed to I remember there were times when Xanthia was constantly being bashed on these forums by you and Shawn. My point in the email was we need to have a "fair and balanced" approach to the issue. This isn't about one or the other.....it is about giving people choices.

    We've always stated your contributions to PostNuke have been appreciated. I've stated publically that Shawns contributions are appreciated not only by myself but as many know by thousands of users.

    Enough said on the subject, happy googling!


    Lets not do that... I respect the decisions of the moderator to delete any thread they consider an attack as on individuals in this forum... Attacking other members only results in a loss of respect for the individual doing the attacking.

    As far as whats said here, I dont see the big deal... The discussion that these talk about is

    1) the future of Xanthia,

    2) the current state of Xanthia...

    I have wanted to talk about these issues, because I am starting to document this area. I am in direct conversations with phpNut, and a few members of the team...

    I have found 2 things..

    First, unless the author of Autothemes wants to release the code under the GNU/GPL, the future of postNuke is infact Xanthia. I can see this...

    The issues presented with Xanthia are currently a lack of a common and intuitive user interface and language, and the current abundance of bugs in the .750 version. Both of which can be solved... but how do we do this?

    I feel the direction of Xanthia is to loose the style elements (Theme Colors, and Theme Settings)... This was a good idea, but the problem is that Themes contain colors that are combined with overlapping images. The Theme Settings could be cool for some applications, such as theme developers who sell/distribute their themes. The replacement of Theme Colors should be the ability to define a range of CSS's to choose from. That way, theme designers can provide a choice in colors by providing multiple CSS's to each theme.

    IThe problem with the language of Xanthia is that:

    A) Xanthia is a project codename, and shouldnt be the end name for the module... It took me a LONG time to make the connection of Xanthia to its meaning... I think renaiming this module is a good idea...

    Lastly a decision of Xanthia storing templates on the file system or in the database has to be made. Either way, the templates still need to be reloaded anytime a change is made (due to the Cache). From an interface standpoint, it would be better if the theme was controlled in the database. Their then has to be a better way to export and import themes into the system...

    What ever way this is done, it needs to be a all or nothing effort..

    For example, if its going to be stored in a database, then the themes should be shared via a web interface. There should be a "import" function and a "Export" function... Both should interface with Zip or GZip, and would include uploads and downloads. The entire package would contain all information for the theme... The downside of this would be the inability to edit themes with macromedia directly on the server with Dreamweaver or an IDE. Images and HTML files could be uploaded and downloaded from the web interface and would have to be copy and pasted into the appropriate design interface. The upside to this would be the ability for "novice" users to import themes with little knowledge of filesystems, HTML, permissions or ftp.

    If its going to be stored in the file system, then the themes should be shared via the current directory ftp method... The downside would be that it will remain harder for the "simple" user to add new themes. The upside is that the current "advanced" user would be able to take dreamweaver, Zend, or other IDE and input the file directly.

    Either way the theme would have to be "refreshed" for Smarty caching to take off.

    It is probably possible to come up with a compromised system that would provide both functionalities.
  • mgp7419




    IThe problem with the language of Xanthia is that:

    A) Xanthia is a project codename, and shouldnt be the end name for the module... It took me a LONG time to make the connection of Xanthia to its meaning... I think renaiming this module is a good idea...


    This will not happen since I am the author of the module and I like the name :) Took me a Greg Remington a few long weeks to come up with the name. Now someone can fork it and name it whatever but the Xanthia that is in PostNuke will still be Xanthia

    Quote


    Lastly a decision of Xanthia storing templates on the file system or in the database has to be made. Either way, the templates still need to be reloaded anytime a change is made (due to the Cache). From an interface standpoint, it would be better if the theme was controlled in the database. Their then has to be a better way to export and import themes into the system...

    What ever way this is done, it needs to be a all or nothing effort..

    For example, if its going to be stored in a database, then the themes should be shared via a web interface. There should be a "import" function and a "Export" function... Both should interface with Zip or GZip, and would include uploads and downloads. The entire package would contain all information for the theme... The downside of this would be the inability to edit themes with macromedia directly on the server with Dreamweaver or an IDE. Images and HTML files could be uploaded and downloaded from the web interface and would have to be copy and pasted into the appropriate design interface. The upside to this would be the ability for "novice" users to import themes with little knowledge of filesystems, HTML, permissions or ftp.

    If its going to be stored in the file system, then the themes should be shared via the current directory ftp method... The downside would be that it will remain harder for the "simple" user to add new themes. The upside is that the current "advanced" user would be able to take dreamweaver, Zend, or other IDE and input the file directly.

    Either way the theme would have to be "refreshed" for Smarty caching to take off.

    It is probably possible to come up with a compromised system that would provide both functionalities.


    Xanthia is still being developed. It was not even part of the .7x branch of code it was added to .8 which has many more features than the .7x branch.

    Alot of the things you mention above are being fixed and added. Exporting theme packages for distribution is added to my code already, but will not be in CVS until I have worked out a few other bugs in the current code base
  • mgp7419

    First, unless the author of Autothemes wants to release the code under the GNU/GPL, the future of postNuke is infact Xanthia.


    Respectfully, and with no hint of "bashing" intended and not in reference to anything else in the original post except for what is quoted above, just for clarification, "AutoTheme was at its inception years ago and continues to this day to be licensed under the GNU/GPL".

    Thanks!
    -Shawn a.k.a "the author of AutoTheme"

    --
    Get the Revolutionary AutoTheme HTML Theme System! Currently for Zikula, PHP-Nuke, CRE Loaded, osCommerce and Wordpress!
  • The post Abra gave is in the correct spot, but my response fits better in the other topic... So Please see for response...
    http://forums.postnuke.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=34329
  • phpnut

    mgp7419




    IThe problem with the language of Xanthia is that:

    A) Xanthia is a project codename, and shouldnt be the end name for the module... It took me a LONG time to make the connection of Xanthia to its meaning... I think renaiming this module is a good idea...


    This will not happen since I am the author of the module and I like the name :) Took me a Greg Remington a few long weeks to come up with the name. Now someone can fork it and name it whatever but the Xanthia that is in PostNuke will still be Xanthia



    to everyone: First let me explain that phpnut is a friend of mine so don't take what I'm about to type as a negative. It's just to clarify a few points which seem to always get lost.

    To phpnut: Second let me remind you that you are not the original author of Xanthia. It was originally authored by Brian Virgin of Envolution with the name Encompass. Larry and a couple associates forked it and renamed it Xanthia at my request to keep from confusing people about who maintains the original code. From my experience and communication with Mark West and from a couple phone conversations with you, Xanthia has not been maintained by you for quite a long time. In fact Mark West has been maintaining the fork of Encompass known as Xanthia for quite some time. If you are back to maintaining Xanthia that is surely great news. You should get in contact with me considering we are working on a few addons for Encompass which we are porting to work with Xanthia.

    Xanthia/pnRender got started from Encompass/envRender and I am still surprised to this day why people other than Mark even thought to contact us for some assistance with your fork of our code and even some of the docs.

    mgp7419: The points you have made concerning template data stored in the database were addressed in Encompass long before Xanthia came to fruition. Fact is, for speed alone, data storage in the file system is much quicker and creates less overhead than if called from the DB. In addition functions already exist to automatically clear the cache and reload templates transparently...so the cache items you are concerned about are really a non-issue.

    To address template editing both Xanthia and Encompass templates can be edited in any editor from simple text editors to the Dreamweaver you mentioned. Work is also in the cards for a built in Template editor for Encompass and may very well be ported to Xanthia if the demand is there. Simplicity for novice users concerning installation and deinstallation of themes is being made a no-brainer in Encompass's next revisions. No knowlege of file system permissions beyond CMS installation requirements would be required...simply upload them theme into the proper location and select it! It can't get any simpler than that. Deinstallation would amount to click the uninstall button and remove the files..bingo theme gone. That's pretty simple.

    Larry named the fork Xanthia for whatever reason and frankly I don't think it matters what the name of the module is, it could be named for a reason or named arbitrarily. Same difference though...what's in a name.

    addressing everyone again: It is true that certain already named individuals have criticized Xanthia and specifically Encompass because it threatens a source of revenue for their commercial products. It is also a distortion of the truth that a certain theme system is easier to use and customize for novices. Truth is you still have to open up an editor to customize files in both theme options currently to make it work and look the way you want it to work and look. And one of the theme options requires overwriting system files of the CMS when you add it in. One of the theme options has an author who has questioned the performanceof Xanthia/Encompass and each time benchmarks by third party's have shown Xanthia/Encompass outperforms by a wide margin once server loads and data size is increased. What this means is the true performance shines when the system scales to heavier traffic and system loads.

    Having a Smarty based theme system has benefits that the the other theme sytem cannot acheive. There are many other PHP based applications which use Smarty. It is very easy to integrate Smarty based apps into a Smarty powered CMS because the hard work of making an application Smarty aware is already done. Usually it only amounts to relocating functions and correcting paths. Also an advantage is that Xanthia/Encompass can use the other theme systems themes without installing the other theme system, but the other theme system cannot use Xanthia/Smarty themes without a lot of editing and porting. Currently Xanthia users have to use a conversion kit from Mark West to achive this while Encompass's latest versions can run the other theme system theme natively. This feature will soon be available for Xanthia as well.

    Zoom
  • I like the Xanthia name... It could've been much much worse...

    Zoom


    This feature will soon be available for Xanthia as well.


    mmm ........ been a long time since I read about that but... isn't that "feature" Non-GPL ? (Driver or something like that - Just for clarification)

    For my part, I personnaly don't care that Xanthia or others can run others themes and bring me coffee when I woke up... mmm to think about it, I prefer that it brings me the coffee instead of running others themes.

    Having that feature is not a point for me that necessarily elevates a system. It of course widens the audience but with the power of Xanthia/Encompass, etc... it is not a need.

    The goal is not to create a Windows so 98% of the planet can use it... it's to create a good system. And loading the system with such features when the system is already powerful as it is, is not the way to go imo.

    That is of course only an opinion. But there is no need to point me out the pros and cons about "running other theme system themes"... I'm locked on the matter.
    It's what I call a candy. There is many areas other than that that need to be addressed.

    While it may be a "programmer's view" or a view of the guy who won't be using another system theme... it is not too far from the logical views. mmm... I'm almost near to say that this thing is also for the no-brainer (to use Z expression) that cannot (or doesn't want) re-create the same thing he saw on another system... although he can for sure.

    But I guess this will always bring a debate depending on everyone experiences.

    Anyway... that is not the starting subject... sorry for that. ;)



    Have fun !
  • Zoom


    It is also a distortion of the truth that a certain theme system is easier to use and customize for novices.


    I can't agree with this. I have had an AT-Lite Theme installed in one of my sites for the last years. I can and will comment only about my experiences with Xanthia and AT-Lite.

    For the last two months I have been trying to do the same I did with the AT-Lite within the Xanthia/PnRender delivered with PN .750.

    The way Xanthia is implemented ATM in PN .750 has great promises but a headache inducing delivery.

    I'm not a newby to the world on IT, programming, the web or PHP, but I still have a great deal of problems making Xanthia do what I want in the theme, while I had little or no problems doing that with AT-Lite.

    At the end of the day I don't care how my templating and rendering engine is called or who leads its development (even if I think going the Smarty way is a good idea). But I care a lot about usability.

    The system should be usable for me and it should be usable for the guys and gals working with me on the projects who are far less tech-savy than I am. Xanthia isn't. We should work on changing that.

    Shooting against whoever for whatever reasons is the wrong way. Looking into what the problems are is the right way. Learning from systems that are easier to use is the right way. Xanthia is, in my experience, not easier to use than AT-Lite. If you want to call my experience a distorsion of the truth... Well, everyone is entitled to his own informed opinion.

    Look around in this and other PN forums.

    Regards
    TheWub
  • thewub


    ...
    Looking into what the problems are is the right way.
    ...


    Exactly... and for me running other theme system themes is not the solution. Only a BandAid...

    But as Z stated, Encompass is going to a more no-brainer theme installation solution so it's good for them. If Xanthia can benefit of that experience or create his own no-brainer solution such as this... that is the right way to deal with the problem.

    At least for that problem...
    ;)
  • Chestnut

    I like the Xanthia name... It could've been much much worse...

    Zoom


    This feature will soon be available for Xanthia as well.


    mmm ........ been a long time since I read about that but... isn't that "feature" Non-GPL ? (Driver or something like that - Just for clarification)


    Some addons/plugins will be non-GPL and some will be GPL. Either way having it available for Xanthia as well as Encompass is a benefit no matter which theme engine you use. Our theme drivers will be non-GPL but this isn't just about theme drivers.


    Chestnut


    Having that feature is not a point for me that necessarily elevates a system. It of course widens the audience but with the power of Xanthia/Encompass, etc... it is not a need.


    Having choices should/does elevate a theme system and sets it apart from others. It's not about a single feature...rather it is about the overall ability of the theme engine and what people can do with it.

    Zoom
  • thewub

    Zoom


    It is also a distortion of the truth that a certain theme system is easier to use and customize for novices.


    I can't agree with this. I have had an AT-Lite Theme installed in one of my sites for the last years. I can and will comment only about my experiences with Xanthia and AT-Lite.

    For the last two months I have been trying to do the same I did with the AT-Lite within the Xanthia/PnRender delivered with PN .750.

    The way Xanthia is implemented ATM in PN .750 has great promises but a headache inducing delivery.

    {snip}

    I'm not a newby to the world on IT, programming, the web or PHP, but I still have a great deal of problems making Xanthia do what I want in the theme, while I had little or no problems doing that with AT-Lite.

    At the end of the day I don't care how my templating and rendering engine is called or who leads its development (even if I think going the Smarty way is a good idea). But I care a lot about usability.

    The system should be usable for me and it should be usable for the guys and gals working with me on the projects who are far less tech-savy than I am. Xanthia isn't. We should work on changing that.

    Shooting against whoever for whatever reasons is the wrong way. Looking into what the problems are is the right way. Learning from systems that are easier to use is the right way. Xanthia is, in my experience, not easier to use than AT-Lite. If you want to call my experience a distorsion of the truth... Well, everyone is entitled to his own informed opinion.

    Look around in this and other PN forums.

    Regards
    TheWub



    While I do not agree with you that Xanthia is not usable I do agree that it should be more friendly to non-technical people. But there is a point when people have to take a little responsibility for learning to use the tools at hand. If AT is right for you by all means use it. In the end you are still going to have to open up a file, edit it using theme system specific tags to get the look you want in a theme.

    That is exactly what I mean by "distortion of the truth". It's been touted as being so simple to use ... yet in Xanthia/Encompass you do the exact same thing...you open up a template ... and you edit it using theme system specific tags.

    There is no difference in the basic premise of creating or editing a theme so saying AT is easier than Xanthia in my opinion is a distortion of the truth. When I first took a look at how AT was doing things it struck me as complicated and a backassward way of doing things...but after stepping back and looking at it objectively I figured out that it wasn't after all...it was just a different approach to the same problem using a different perspective...but the same effort needed in Xanthia/Encompass to create or modify themes and layouts is needed in AT.

    I don't believe anyone is "shooting" against anyone else (with the exception of negative comments about Xanthia from the other theme author and his loyals) rather the idea is to get people to understand Xanthia and use it to it's full potential. I think a good complete set of docs on Xanthia will pretty much erase the apathy toward it that I see.

    Zoom
  • Zoom

    To phpnut: Second let me remind you that you are not the original author of Xanthia. It was originally authored by Brian Virgin of Envolution with the name Encompass. Larry and a couple associates forked it and renamed it Xanthia at my request to keep from confusing people about who maintains the original code. From my experience and communication with Mark West and from a couple phone conversations with you, Xanthia has not been maintained by you for quite a long time. In fact Mark West has been maintaining the fork of Encompass known as Xanthia for quite some time. If you are back to maintaining Xanthia that is surely great news. You should get in contact with me considering we are working on a few addons for Encompass which we are porting to work with Xanthia.

    Xanthia/pnRender got started from Encompass/envRender and I am still surprised to this day why people other than Mark even thought to contact us for some assistance with your fork of our code and even some of the docs.


    ..pretty sure there was a predecessor to Encompass as well..if i remember correctly.. based on Sam's Smarty based doo-dad.. i could be wrong..

    ..as far as plugging AT themes into Xanthia.. it doesn't make any sense to me.. why anyone would want to really.. why not just use the available system (AT) instead of piggy backing them.. surely there would be performance costs doubling up on processed code.

    I've used both systems and i understand both.. and the theme file contents are rediculously similar.. so to call one "easier than the other" is a lot like saying "i haven't used the other enough to know how similar it is."

    ..my $0.0049 ;)
  • What the hell are envolution and encompass?
  • I think many of you miss a central point. The AT module has become a cross-platform solution. I now have more OSC and phpNuke customers than Postnuke customers. That is the power of the AT module. If I could just get Shawn to do some more work we'd be catering to many more CMS systems. Hell, the blogosphere may be next.

    I've thought of converting my extensive theme collection to XTE, but there is just too little interest to bother. Maybe if someone writes a conversion script I might convert them (assuming it removed all the work), but until then I won't be writing XTE themes. I know most of you will say "good riddance," but I continue to believe that investing all this energy in XTE rather than useful new features was a mistake. AT is as good or better and the community prefers it (and it actually works).

    Bash away, but I am entitled to my opinion.
  • As far as I care... the theme system will be doing everything it needs to soon... Hooks need to be applied to blocks. You should be able to make pages on modules... and the choice of having control over CSS would be nice. Xanthia is a great engine, but from all I have seen we should soon be focused on other elements like pnMedia, and a few other design changes...
  • warrick

    I think many of you miss a central point. The AT module has become a cross-platform solution. I now have more OSC and phpNuke customers than Postnuke customers. That is the power of the AT module. If I could just get Shawn to do some more work we'd be catering to many more CMS systems. Hell, the blogosphere may be next.


    Good for you and for Shawn, more power to you. But no one is missing anything there.

    Quote

    Bash away, but I am entitled to my opinion.


    And so are the rest of us.

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