This weekend I decided I'd finally check out Pagesetter to see what it's all about. The thing I found most impressive was the lack of decent supporting resources for learning the module.
The included readme text and "manual" are trivial and appear to have been written for a different version, with different nomenclature. Even the "step-by-step" tutorials are missing steps and often refer to things in a way that does not match what one actually sees in the GUI.
It's clear the supporting docs have lost something in the translation and upgrades. I think they also miss the mark because the writer may be too close to see things from the perspective of someone looking at the module for the first time.
The forums are not much more helpful. Finding your question at the Pagesetter forums is easy but such questions are rarely answered and more often than not followed up with the original author writing something like "After hours of trying everything I finally figured it out now I'm trying to..." Again the nomenclature problem makes things worse.
This is not unlike many open source offerings where learning is mostly a trial and error process; however, in this case, because Pagesetter is so powerful and often counterintuitive, the problem is more obvious and more frustrating.
I couldn't help but think of how many people had similarly walked down that path. I like efficiency and so am annoyed at seeing so much time invested on something so non-productive.
Pagesetter is very powerful and I believe its wider use could do much to expand the utility and popularity of PostNuke, in general. In that regard, it is my feeling that this problem is more significant than in most other modules.
I know this weekend I'd have gladly paid for a well written manual and I'm sure many who've gone through this would have done the same during their initiation. I think it would be something well received in both financial and emotional terms. If I had the knowledge and experience, I would do it myself. I don't, so I want to encourage a Pagesetter expert, with excellent writing skills, to write the Pagesetter Bible or, at least, a Pagesetter for Dummies.
Slugger
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I think there would be buyers for a Pagesetter Bible
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 - 04:33 AM
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 - 04:45 AM
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 - 02:23 PM
Kenshino,
It's a pain to learn. The amazing thing is that, once your start figuring things out you realize the problem is not that it is so difficult, it's that the resources for learning the module are so bad.
For example, usually the developers forums are a good place to start. Not so for Pagesetter. I've never seen so many unanswered questions and many times you'll find the same question asked time and time again with no answer.
There's no way to know for sure but I'll bet more people give up on Pagesetter than stick with it long enough to figure it out. That's not good in open source because, when people start using something and like it, it really catches fire. New ideas. New features. New enthusiasm.
Slugger -
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 - 03:55 PM
I recently started using Pagesetter for a few custome sections on my site that otherwise would involve either a custome module for each section, or making "legasy modules" for each and have learned alot about Pagesetter just by beating away on it.
Now there are definatly some deficancies in the documentation. I cannot get the hang of workflow/permission combos to do differant things, as well as the usage of some commands. I got past alot of the command problems by investigating the example templates. The permissions still have me lost though.
Take Care,
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Posted: Oct 31, 2004 - 04:58 PM
I thought the Permissions were pretty clear from the docs. Workflow, that needs some work, as does the form customizations.
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Posted: Nov 01, 2004 - 06:27 AM
Hi Michaels (Ferretlover and Halbrook),
The docs comingle references to PostNuke and Pagsetter permission schema such that it's not very clear. Like many things in the Pagesetter docs, it may be clear once you have a bit of understanding but, working from minimal knowledge (as should be the assumption in writing such), the documents are not clear on permissions. In fact, I didn't and haven't had a problem with the permissions but, judging by the number of questions posted about permissions at the Pagesetter forum, the permissions are not explained well.
Another example of what is missing is an explanation for intgrating Pagesetter into an existing website. The assumption in practice, in spite of a statement to the contrary, is that the website revolves around Pagesetter. Proof of this can be found in many (often unanswered) questions at the Pagesetter forums about using Pagesetter as a home page or with other modules.
Another thing missing is the fact that Pagesetter's administrative GUI is incompatible with many browsers. At least that is something I've discovered on my Mac as Pagesetter does not work properly with Safari of Firefox. I'll bet this documentary oversight cost me 2 hours as I thought I must be doing something wrong or that I needed a plugin or extension for my browsers. I wasn't and I didn't. I finally discovered I could work much, much faster by manually creating and uploading templates and working from the database directly.
These reasons and more are why talk about integrating Pagesetter into the core is premature. It's just not ready for prime time. Notwithstanding the documentary problems which can be easily fixed or mitigated with more active forums, Pagesetter needs to be more reliable and compatible (with browsers, modules, etc) to be considered for the core.
Pagesetter is powerful. I've said that and I wouldn't be using it if it couldn't do something I need/want better than the other options. This is not about indicting Pagesetter as much as it is about encouraging more attention to the details that make learning Pagesetter far more difficult than it should be.
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Posted: Nov 01, 2004 - 04:30 PM
Yes, I am one of those who gave up on Pagesetter. I could never get to a point where I understood the process at all. I gave it up and went to PagEd and am now kicking myself for not going with PagEd sooner. PagEd is an excellent product with great documentation and you can even figure most of it out without any documentation at all.
Further, I was using Photoshare too and had some major problems after upgrading to PN 0.75. I practically begged for help on the Photoshare forum, and when I finally got an answer, I was told "tough luck" in so many words. So I canned Photoshare too.
Just my two cents. -
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Posted: Nov 04, 2004 - 05:57 PM
The forums for Pagesetter and photoshare are case studies in how not to do it. The number of unanswered and/or ignored questions is inexcusable. I happen to use both modules and like them but I can understand why so many people jump ship before they even get an oar in the water. Again, for the lack of support I feel Pagesetter should never be part of the core.
Slugger -
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Posted: Nov 04, 2004 - 07:05 PM
I've always gotten the help I need at the Pagesetter forums with little problem, of course I've also found Pagesetter much more intuitive than PageEd which I still haven't really gotten the hang of. I find PageSetters documentation pretty good, if needing updating, which as I understand it, someone is porting the docs over to DocBook format and then updates will be done to it.
I understand the frustration that many feel with the support on his forums, but how many of you have given him how much money? He has a life outside of Pagesetter and he does what he can. Maybe he should have just not even put it out there flawed or not.
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Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 03:18 PM
Hi Slugger
You are right - there are (really) many unanswered questions on elfisk.dk. The reason for this is quite simple, as mhalbrook wrote, I also have a life outside Pagesetter. This means I only have so many hours a week to work on Pagesetter (and Photoshare). When I started on Pagesetter I somehow had more hours than I do no now (I don't really know why) - so lately I haven't spent much time on it.
And when I do spend time on Pagesetter, it is usually on the train to and from my job - which means I cannot answer questions on the forums. This highly favors development over support.
The last problem is that answering all of the questions on the forums would take me somewhere between 1/2 and 1 hour a day! Believe me, that is what it takes to give well thought and serious answers. If I should spend that time each and every day on Pagesetter then I would never have time to do development at all. Again I choose development over support.
People may not like that answer, but I love coding, and whatever time I spend in my sparetime, I spend on something fun. My hope was then that somebody would step up and help answering questions in the forums - which some people do, but not enough - they, like me, probably already have their hands full.
Anyway - the short version is - I am sorry for the missing answers, I just do not have 3-6 hours a week for that sole purpose. -
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Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 03:31 PM
Regarding the documentation - again you are right, it is a bit out of date. But writing good documentation takes time - and keeping all the screendumps up to date takes further more time, so I skip that in some cases, in the hope that people understand the essence and are able to "fill out the blanks".
As mhalbrook wrote, the manual is right now being rewritten to the DocBook format, so I won't do anything about it right now. Actually I just received the initial DocBook files right before my vacation, so I should be able to work on it when I get home in december.
The nomenclature is not fantastic, sorry, but english is not my main language, so I sometimes choose a bit strange wording.
So now I already have two "important" projects - being more active in the forums, and improving the documentation. Add on top of that a huge list of development requests, and you might understand why I sometimes have trouble catching up with everything.
Okay, you didn't exactly ask me to write the Pagesetter Bible, I know, but I somehow feel that I should do something about the documentation. -
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Posted: Nov 07, 2004 - 03:40 PM
One more thing about the documentation - I would love to have it commented by someone. The only thing I ever hear is that it is badly written (well no, some people do actually find it very usefull) and that doesn't really help me getting it better.
What I would love to see is a long list of actual suggestions as to how I can make it better. That would be wonderfull. If someone choses to do that, then please remember that I am on vacation right now, and don't check these pages very often.
One last thing - I do not agree with you that the manual is trivial
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Posted: Nov 08, 2004 - 06:28 PM
JørnLind,
I appreciate your response. I like your module. I think that's pretty obvious but, from personal experience, I can see why people get frustrated and give up before they ever see what it can do. When I was figuring it out, I had a few questions that, if I'd known the answer, or if the answer were available, it would have been a breeze. I thought about posting on your forums but didn't bother because the questions had been asked before...but never answered.
I know it's somehwat standard protocal to point questions back to the developers website. Personally, I like the idea of questions all being posted to the same site and, as you have another life, I think it would be better to encourage people to post here where they can easily collaborate. That would take some of the burden off you and *hopefully* stimulate greater use.
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Posted: Nov 09, 2004 - 03:38 AM
Wendell
Yes, I am one of those who gave up on Pagesetter. I could never get to a point where I understood the process at all. I gave it up and went to PagEd and am now kicking myself for not going with PagEd sooner. PagEd is an excellent product with great documentation and you can even figure most of it out without any documentation at all.
Further, I was using Photoshare too and had some major problems after upgrading to PN 0.75. I practically begged for help on the Photoshare forum, and when I finally got an answer, I was told "tough luck" in so many words. So I canned Photoshare too.
Just my two cents.
hey i had photoshare 3.30 working with 750, and i just upgraded to 4.1.0 and it works also...
agreed with ALL slugger points re:pagesetter....i consider myself to be a more advanced postnuke user, and i have the manual which i read from back to front, but Pagesetter still mystifies me...i love the photoshare/pagesetter integration, but PagEd is flat out easier to understand....pagesetter i realize is more adapted to 750 (templates/smarty) etc., but i need to fully understand a module/product before i elevate it to production. on my dev site i have installs of both PagEd and Pagesetter, to check out both...but i am stuck now..
i like PagEd GUI, but Pagesetter functionality/integration...
oh dear....but pls do keep up the work on it....if i understand it more...i have no probs helpin out in docs & support.
supa
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Posted: Nov 10, 2004 - 12:18 PM
Ok.. am ready to ditch it too. Just spend to much time [2 months now] trying to get answers. Perhaps you want to incl in your doc?
1) SIMPLE URL's demo: how to place URL calling ps menu. Manual shows 1 only in block but what if I want 2 and 3 pubs in the menu and not in 3 menus??
In left block menu one can only add one pub. Couldn't see/find URL that shows how to call menu for each. I know all it is is different ID but a manual link doesn't pop up dynamic menu. Am willing to create file with tables and use in left block if I had urls to show dynamic menu pub 1 to 3. Simple small demo will do.. similar to custom single page. [which brings me to next one]
2) Demo show 4 tables with a 2x2 layout. Nice but.. the part that says publication(0) [I think] (1), (2) etc. is nowhere to be found. Does it show only 4 news from same category OR does it show 1 from 4 different ones??
Basically it's all small stuff.. so far. For me all I needed is different look for templates [can do] multi pub menu in ONE left block and have a dual or even triple page list page of teasers.
Oh, almost forgot. The list files do not not pop up as they should. ie: placed a color tag for News display. Only shows it on front page. Any other ones do not show it even though code there. So News is black instead of purple. [think if I use CSS it will do it but??]
Want a directory or whatever to place 1 set of files for all as it seems default doesn't get seen either. That's no matter where they are. Tried many approaces.
Hope I'mnot to confusing..
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