I've decided that my time would be better spent someplace other than these forums. So if you have any questions for me about stats, statistics, referers, short URLs or any of the other things, you'll need to send email to crs AT mtrad DOT com to reach me.
And if you hear of any interesting new CMS stuff, drop me a line. I'm still interested in cool things. 8)
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**unknown user**
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Posted: Oct 11, 2004 - 07:52 PM
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- Rank: Developer
- Registered: Dec 31, 1969
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Posted: Oct 11, 2004 - 08:36 PM
Craig,
Coincidental timing, or an over reaction to the "No Announcements in the forums" policy that has been in place since June?
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**unknown user**
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 04:39 AM
If you were smart enough, you would have just let it go... "over reaction" implies an inappropriate response on my part. As if you have any right to judge that.
But since you bring up the topic - your removal of one of my posts without any notice did make me re-evaluate the value of my participation in this forum. As I said in my response to your private message, this community is shrinking, not growing. That means that there's fewer new people with interesting ideas. And that means less new interesting development. So there's less return on my investment of time spent here.
You can justify your actions by saying that it was according to documented rules. Okay - your actions were justified. But they are still wrong. Reducing forum participation is not the right thing to do. And I believe that is one of the reasons that the community is shrinking. Folks realize that they are not valued and they go elsewhere.
On Friday, I found out that my startup is being funded. And now I have to staff a development team, develop several engineering partnerships and help manage the investors. So I don't expect to have alot of time over the next 6-18 months. I need to consider what the best use of my time is going to be.
On the whole, I am proud of my participation here. If you look at my posts over the last 12-18 months, I think that you'll see that they were supportive and responsive. Not that there aren't others who do the same, but I like to think that I made a positive contribution to the community.
So even though I think I provide value here, it's certainly not appreciated by the PN team. And I don't mean it in a specific way that the PN team doesn't appreciate me. They just don't get the idea of the community and why folks participate. So they can't appreciate our contributions.
I'm going to spend my time where it's appreciated, where it provides value to others and, at some level, provides value to myself.
I'll drop by when time permits. And I still read email. And I'll still work on statistics and some of the other PN things that are worth my time.
Aloha! -
- Rank: Developer
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- Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
- Posts: 6859
Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 05:29 AM
ColdRolledSteel
Reducing forum participation is not the right thing to do.
Removing a module release announcement from the forums is hardly reducing forum participation. If your goal was to garner feedback on Statistics, then you could have posted a post requesting that, and linked to your announcement. As it is, there have been posts providing feedback on Statistics even with 7's announcement also having been removed.
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So even though I think I provide value here, it's certainly not appreciated by the PN team.
That's a crock. You are valued and appreciated, and if you'd bothered to read my post, I have not, and will not, remove posts that are soliciting feedback on one's project, which you seemed to indicate was your purpose in making the announcement in the forums as well as the proper place. If you want feedback, personally, I think it's best to provide your own vehicle for feedback, but if one wants to use these forums, then fine. In fact, I explicitly stated in my PM to you that even more than others, Statistics was logical to be allowed, since it is to be part of .8. But instead, you decide you want to leave. If there are other mitigating circumstances that make you feel you need to leave, that's fine, but don't try to blame me or the rest of the team for it. Your reaction to your perception is your choice, and we can't make you do anything.
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And I don't mean it in a specific way that the PN team doesn't appreciate me. They just don't get the idea of the community and why folks participate. So they can't appreciate our contributions.
So, in actuallity, those of us on the pnTeam who are contributing our time and energy to do things from moderating the forums, news and program are not appreciated by you, since we obviously don't understand.
The fact of the matter is, things around here were left to virtually chaos for a long time, and now that that's not the case, it seems like we're being unreasonable, but I doubt you or anyone else would have have a problem with the policies if they had been enforced since day one. It's BECAUSE we value participation and contributions that we are trying to make things more clear cut, but WE are not being appreciated for the efforts that are taken.
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I'm going to spend my time where it's appreciated, where it provides value to others and, at some level, provides value to myself.
Your time is appreciated here, and I think most will agree it provides others value, if you don't find the value to yourself, that's a personal issue to deal with.
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**unknown user**
- Rank: Helper
- Registered: Mar 16, 2002
- Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
- Posts: 825
Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 07:03 AM
Come on guys...
First, mhalbrook; dont be so quick to remove threads. Just ask people to not do something... Give multiple warnings, and then warn somemore for thoose who are active on the site. Relax with the rules for thoose who are most active, and talk to us. Dont take action so quick, and you would avoid this trouble... I slap you on your hand for beign inappropriate.
Second, ColdRolledSteel; be patient and compassionate. People here are human, and we all fuck up. Sometimes we do things that are not politically right. From what it sounds like, they where wrong for removing your post without talking to you about it. They have done it to me a few times, and its not very cool. Strict rules are ment to result in good policy, but can alienate people. That doesnt mean you should leave. Just understand they are not perfect, and ignore it, or talk about it.
Please I dont want to see you go. Your helping me with problems and I give you props. I understand your angry, and I agree with that anger. I dont agree with your reaction to leave. PostNuke is clearly the best CMS out there. Where else will you go, PHPNuke? LOL...
Take a deep breath, a few days off... and come back when you feel better:) Your frustration is not unreasonable, and I accept it as genuine. However I want you to understand that we are not ALL this way.
I hope this helps
Mike -
- Rank: Developer
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- Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
- Posts: 6859
Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 07:28 AM
mgp7419
First, mhalbrook; dont be so quick to remove threads. Just ask people to not do something... Give multiple warnings, and then warn somemore for thoose who are active on the site.
The policy on announcements in the forums was made and posted in June. It was made in part because some people were using the forums to get around the process of making announcements, and partly because of an increased number of complaints about the forums starting to become advertising heavy. The complaints were directly dealing with Theme release announcements, but it wouldn't be fair to the theme developers to banish their posts, but to allow block and module announcements so it was made all encompasing. There is a place for release announcements, and Craigh had already submitted to the proper place and it had been approved by the time I removed the posting.
No, I don't expect special treatment because I'm the lead moderator, I don't think Mark expects special treatment because he does a large bit of the coding for the project, and no one else will get special treatment. If we allowed special treatment for some, then that would create more of an uproar than already exists.Quote
Relax with the rules for thoose who are most active
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and talk to us.
The policy was posted back in JUNE, it has been made known, and at that time, there was much debate about the policy as well.
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Dont take action so quick, and you would avoid this trouble
Policies are in place so that some action CAN be taken quick. There is a clear cut policy in place, and by acting on it, that is NOT taking action quick. I have PMed people when I remove announcements letting them know, and either I forgot, or some other glitch happend the first time I removed a Statistics announcement and he didn't get that.
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I slap you on your hand for beign inappropriate.
Following established policy is not being inappropriate.
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 08:16 AM
Hey Craig,
Please reconsider.
I am grateful for the help you've given me and very appreciative for what I've learned from your posts to others. It's the opportunity for the latter that we'll be missing if you walk.
You're an SOB for sure but PostNuke needs more SOBs like you! Don't be Country Joe'd (Gimme a F-I-S-H) into staying away.
The time issue is probably out of your control (BTW congrats on funding) but, notwithstanding some heavy handed censoring going on, I'm sure the vast majority of us agree that you are welcome, wanted, and needed here.
Slugger -
- Rank: Developer
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- Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
- Posts: 6859
Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 08:19 AM
Get off the censorship horse Slugger, this isn't about censorship, it's about using the forums for their intended purposes and using the news sites for thier purpose. In the past 2 months, there are 3 posts in the removal bin, 2 are module announcements, one is someone asking for a link to download the nonGPL'd AutoTheme.
There have been others that I have deleted, but those deletions were posts that were duplicated posts. Some lock them, I don't see the point.
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**unknown user**
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 08:23 AM
Let me reassure everyone that I am not upset - I just made a decision based on my experience and my expectations. Let me also reassure everyone that this wasn't just about a deletion of a single post of mine. As I said, mhalbrook was justified according to the rules.
If you want to better understand my decision, then just re-read this thread from start to finish. I started this thread purely to let folks know that I was moving on and to remind them of my email. mhalbrook lit the flames and continues to fan them. And that he's representing the PN team as a forum moderator.
And, just to re-iterate my point - that the policies and practices of the PN team are killing the community - compare the number of posts to the PN sites during last month and a year ago, September 2003. I looked at the pnmodules site. In September 2003, we had 61 announcements. Last month we only had 30. (And that doesn't take into account the significant number of announcements that were posted on August 30th, 2003!)
Well, that's all I've got to say about this topic. So I won't be posting to it anywmore...
So... if anyone wants any help or advice, all they need to do is drop me an email to crs AT mtrad DOT com. Maybe we can do lunch...
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**unknown user**
- Rank: Softmore
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- Posts: 135
Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 08:32 AM
ColdRolledSteel
And, just to re-iterate my point - that the policies and practices of the PN team are killing the community - compare the number of posts to the PN sites during last month and a year ago, September 2003.
It's amazing to me how many times something like this has been stated and how many times its been (apparently) thoroughly ignored.
I can feel a lock coming... -
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 08:50 AM
That was my sole purpose in asking.ColdRolledSteel
Let me also reassure everyone that this wasn't just about a deletion of a single post of mine.
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mhalbrook lit the flames and continues to fan them.
Lit the flames? I was making sure you wern't leaving in a huff over the enforcement of a policy that has been in place for 4 months, given your reactions to me in private messages. It was responses to my question and the poilicy that I have been responding to since.
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And that he's representing the PN team as a forum moderator.
And as a member of the community. You are a valueable asset to the community, and I don't know why you feel you're not valued or appreciated by myself, or anyone else on the team.
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that the policies and practices of the PN team are killing the community
So the number of news items has reduced. That happens, people move on. I don't have the paitence to dig through and see what was done in september of last year vs this year, how many of those items are about the same project? How many of those projects are dead or orphaned? How many of the dead/orphaned projects are because of policies or practices of the pnTeam? How many are dead because of lack of interest, or frustration with ungreatful people?
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 08:53 AM
iammaxus
It's amazing to me how many times something like this has been stated and how many times its been (apparently) thoroughly ignored.
It's not ignored, It's just not agreed with. Things are changing, and as a result of the changes, some are going to be disgruntled, that's a fact of life. Things have gone from a virtually hands off approach to a hands on approach. The ONLY new policy that has been implemented is the one regarding making module annoucnements in the forums. Some people have issues with the fact that the other existing guidelines and policies are being enforced.
When the Announcement policy was implemented, several people complained, but no one ever could give me a good answer as to why we should allow people to do an end run around the system by posting announcements here when we have had a place, for a long time, for them to be made.
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I can feel a lock coming...
Not if it's kept civil.
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 09:08 AM
mhalbrook
Get off the censorship horse Slugger, this isn't about censorship...
I'm sure it's not.
Slugger -
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 09:18 AM
Craig's post that was removed was IDENTICAL to the announcement on the Mods site, so no, it's not. If it was censorship, then the post on the mods site would have been removed. It's about things being placed in the right place. If, as he said in his PM response to my notification, his goal was for feedback on Statistics, all he had to do was open a new post soliciting feedback.
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**unknown user**
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Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 11:14 AM
..first off.. Craig, my best wishes to you and everything you decide to do.
$0.02 here:
..recently my dog was hit and killed by a car on a road near my house.. she was just shy of 2 years old.. I remember all the times she'd paw at me and whine to get my attention.. usually, i was buried in some pile of code unable to share what little time fate had alloted us.. now, i think about my family.. the frailties of life and my priorities.. at first, I didn't think I'd ever go back to the computer.. but, decided to just take some time away and recognize the moments i had sacrificed.
..no "sorry about your dog" replies.. it's not about that.. it's about missing out on real moments with the people and things that really matter..
..sorry for getting "personal" .. i just read this and it seemed coincidental and relative somehow.. anyhow.. good luck Craig.
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