Zikula Community

• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Registered User
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Mar 31, 2005
  • Posts: 17

  Posted: Oct 08, 2004 - 03:44 AM

  I came across whith a good article on CMS's
  http://www.veen.com/…rchives/000622.html
  
  Jeffrey Veen writes that;
  ' did some research recently at OpenSourceCMS.com -- a fantastic site that lets you play with dozens of CMS installations -- and left pretty depressed. What I experienced was obtuse and complex software that was packed with gratuitous features at the expense of usability and user experience. It was software written by geeks, for geeks. This whole category of software desperately needs to be redesigned with writers, editors, designers, and site owners in mind.'
  
  Like jeffrey I also made the same search and tried many CMS's and I had to make choice with PN yet I share Jeffrey Vien's feelings and thoughts and critics and suggestions.
  
  I thought to share it with the PN community
  
  regards

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Softmore
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 367

  Posted: Oct 10, 2004 - 06:35 AM

  I am making this post not as a form of argument or anything along those lines. I am making this only to inform.
  
  Some time ago I looked around and began to think about what I could do to make things better or how I could contribute to the 'cause' if you want to call it that.
  
  I began an experiment by writing a series of articles covering how to install PostNuke and then how to use the basic features of the core system to get a site up and running. I had no grand plans, just an experiment to see what would happen and if such a thing could be useful. I was very happy to see it being used, it was being used far beyond what I had ever thought would be the case.
  
  I then extended that experiment a bit further by doing just a bare-bones type setup in a structured learning environment to extend the articles into a self paced tutorial. I was again amazed to see how many people were making use of the material.
  
  With the release of PostNuke .750, I am back at the keyboard writing again. I have just about completed the modification to the base articles to make them useable for the .750 release. I am incorporating many of the suggestions that former users had provided in an effort to make the material more complete and effective. You can have a look at what I am doing by checking out the article at http://www.irarichar…ead&order=0&thold=0
  
  When I get the basic article re-write completed I am going to upgrade the tutorial on my eLearning site with the new material and provide a better format for the tutorial. You can have a look at the existing format by viewing http://www.elearn.irarichardsmith.com/ and selecting the Free Tutorial link.
  
  In looking at the Open Source field, in particular the CMS arena, I view things from the perspective of not so much what can they do for me but what I can do to help others out who choose to use the tools at hand. I will be adding more articles and tutorials over time to the collection in an effort to provide help and assistance to those who need it.
  
  Hope this helps you out.

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• vworld
  

  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 786

  Posted: Oct 12, 2004 - 07:50 PM

  You can read my response to Jeffrey Veen's points with respect to PostNuke here: http://www.designs4nuke.com
  
  --
  iThinkMedia.com
  
  Follow me on Twitter

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 825

  Posted: Oct 13, 2004 - 03:41 AM

  For me, PostNuke is easy to use... and often VERY powerful. I also can configure it in ways that allow for content managers to do their jobs...
  
  If you want a simple CMS, try phpNuke... Its a good start to learning CMS software.
  
  The problem is, that true CMS software is not really for "everyone"... it should be used by professional system analysts and system designers (notice I didn't say developers) who understand HTML/XHTML, php/asp/.net and SQL. Applications that are designed for laymen are considered Bloggers and Loggers.
  
  To understand why this is, you have to engage in a discussion about the difference between Methodologies and Tools. Its a long and detailed discussion to understand this relationship completely... Abbreviated version: methodologies is the understanding of the baseline procedures and practices, where as tools are the applications used to reach that goal. This means that to develop a good content management system, you need to understand complex topics like interface design, document management, design principles, nth tier application development, eye movement and pattern recognizability of humans, etc.
  
  If you want to learn more about these topics, I am currently starting a website geared to the basics of system design ( crayhillsolutions.com ). I cant get to detailed, for it took me years and years (plus 4 years of college) to understand things at the level I am now.
  
  If you want to pursue this area of knowledge I would recommend you go for a degree in Management Information Systems.

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2004 - 03:45 AM

  also the introduction of postNuke .8 and a model that will support Distro's will clearly help create "custom" installs for particular applications.
  
  My company ( crayhillsolutions.com ) is releasing the first Distro of .8 geared to businesses and commercial CMS projects. We will be providing professional support of these systems.
  
  I hope others will come out with versions geared towards Wiki, Clans, Bloggers, etc...

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
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  Posted: Oct 13, 2004 - 03:52 AM

  I hope the postNuke project doesnt loose its complexity if the cost is flexability. I feel other CMS systems are better suited to that area.

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• vworld
  

  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 786

  Posted: Oct 13, 2004 - 03:55 AM

  First I would never recommend using PHP-Nuke, too many bugs and security issues.
  
  Second mgp you either believe CMS's are for the elite programmers or you think anyone can use them. I disagree with your opinion that CMS's need to be complex and not usable. There are system levels in all programs that can be layered depending on the expertise level of the user and this is no different with what you can do with PostNuke it just isn't built into the default distribution yet.
  
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• vworld
  

  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 786

  Posted: Oct 13, 2004 - 03:59 AM

  OT: mgp, just curious since this isn't the first time I've seen you post sequential items within the same post.
  
  Why do you break up your posts?
  
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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
  • Last visit: Jun 01, 2010
  • Posts: 6859

  Posted: Oct 15, 2004 - 05:20 AM

  mgp7419

  I hope the postNuke project doesnt loose its complexity if the cost is flexability. I feel other CMS systems are better suited to that area.

  
  
  Flexibility and complexity are not mutually exclusive. In a way Xanthia/pnRender makes the system more flexible and more complex, but simpler.
  
  Themes and layout are easier to customize now, because they are basically HTML now. However, they can also be made more complex because of the new functionality it allows via custom plugins. If you don't want to use the more complex functions, it's pretty simple, if you do, then it gets more complex.
  
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• Simon
  
  

  • Rank: Legend
  • Registered: Dec 11, 2002
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2004 - 06:11 AM

  I would say however, that for someone with only a rudimentary knowledge of HTML and PostNuke, Xanthia can be quite hard to get to grips with.
  
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  birtwistle.me.uk - Personal Blog
  
  
  Please read the Support Guide

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• HalbrookTech
  
  

  • Rank: Developer
  • Registered: Dec 31, 1969
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  Posted: Oct 15, 2004 - 06:22 AM

  Probably still easier than the old way tho :)
  
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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
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  Posted: Oct 16, 2004 - 04:45 PM

  I would agree with everything you all said. But I have to restate my point, cause Its clear that I wasnt clear...
  
  I would never expect someone who hasnt made a few websites in the past to try and set up a PostNuke site. They probably "COULD", since the pre-made themes and all, but to do anything complex really requires a bit more knowledge then most have. I dont think this is an "elitist" system, but it is for a more advanced userbase. Truth of the mater is that 99% of the internet browsing population are happy if their computers turns on when they push the button.
  
  Everyone on this thread, including me, takes for granted the simple methodologies it takes to program, run, and operate a website. Its been so long since we first learned about the stateless world of the web that we often overlook individuals who dont quite understand this. Its human nature that we dont see, or understand these individuals point of view. We strugle to understandings how things work and their perspective. If you doubt this, try teaching someone to program websites.
  
  A good year ago, I was a member of a AA:O clan. The leaders of the clan, most of them computer scientists and IT people, spent weeks on this website. Finally it was released, and I found out that it ran postNuke. At the time I was familiar with phpNuke, and geeklog, and so I assumed that the extreme time it took them to set it up was due to postNukes complexity. I assumed wrong. The truth of the matter is; it took them along time to just understand enough of the basics to build the site. And when it was released it had a forum, and that ugly brown theme everyone seems to use.
  
  The problem isnt the technology that makes it tough.. Its learning the language, its capabilities, and how to approach problems. Its not the technologie but the understanding of how the elements work together.
  
  Everything gets even more complicated because of language like "Xanthia" and "pnRender" which are foreign terms to the average user.
  
  On top of this, I have worked in the field for many years now (unfortunatly) and the amount of ignorance of CMS systems (or most web systems) are staggering. In a corporate environment, a poorly done system will lead to the breakdown of the contribution environment and/or the failure of the project. I have seen more corporate programs fail due to the lack of attention payed to the small details.
  
  BTW, The future of the CMS systems is infact Pagesetter. I dont doubt this for one second... and even though it will grow to include plug-ins, it will still require an advanced knowledge for anything more custom.
  
  In fact what will happen as postNuke and Pagesetter is that they will grow into a detailed entity like photoshop.
  
  Anyone can use photoshop... But to do REALLY good work, you got to have a DETAILED knowledge of the tool (photoshop) and a good understanding of the methodology (layers, color charts, filters, shapes, etc).
  
  Ohh and I write multiple messages cause I am lazzy:)
  Mike

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• Simon
  
  

  • Rank: Legend
  • Registered: Dec 11, 2002
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  • Posts: 11674

  Posted: Oct 16, 2004 - 06:56 PM

  Quote

  Anyone can use photoshop..

  
  
  There speaks a person that has never met me...
  
  --
  itbegins.co.uk - Zikula Consulting
  
  birtwistle.me.uk - Personal Blog
  
  
  Please read the Support Guide

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• **unknown user**
  
  

  • Rank: Helper
  • Registered: Mar 16, 2002
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  Posted: Oct 17, 2004 - 03:14 AM

  you should learn it hammer, its not hard... just grows in complexity the more you want/need to know....
  
  Just learn how to use layers and all the tools! Then you got it:) I am not artistic, but I made my sites theme with it. I been using photoshop for about 8 years now.
  
  I know that the photoshop for dumbies is a pretty good book for this... I usually dont say this about the dumby books, but it helped me allot.

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• MMaynard
  
  

  • Rank: Expert
  • Registered: Mar 15, 2003
  • Last visit: Oct 21, 2009
  • Posts: 1221

  Posted: Oct 17, 2004 - 04:19 AM

  Photoshop is my all time favorite thing to do.
  I sit around and just play with PS all day instead of wasting my brain watching tv or some other trivial pursuit. :)
  
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  Zikula Themes

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