Dizkus

Are you still using tables?
On trying to install .750 gold and xanthia this week I noticed there is still a heavy reliance on tables.
WHY?
So why? Why is PostNuke and the majority of the internet in 2004 still using tables? I can't think of an answer. I am in the process of transforming my website into a fully tableless design, at http://www.letsmakescotlandgreen.org and from using CSS for the last few months I would not dream heading back down the slippery slope back to designing my layout in tables.
The Montego Estate and the 4 Wheel Drive Impreza
So far if I was to imagine comparisons between a table design and a tableless design, well your tables design is like your A reg. Montego estate, old, shit, incapable of handling adverse and unforseen conditions, and extinct while the tableless design through CSS would be a 4wheel drive subaru impreza, does the job, but faster, can adapt to diferent conditions and looks and sounds much sexier.
Action
So what's it gonna be punk, 1990's table design or fully tableless CSS layouts for a new centuary and a new millenium?

The .7x range is tables based and always has been but since .750 is the last revision in this series this doesn't present too much of a problem......

But anyway it's goodbye tables and hello CSS for .8x. Not only are we using CSS a lot in this release there's also work being done on accessibilty (WCAG, WAI etc.) and usability.

-Mark

Cool man. Can't wait to get .8 then it should be a great ride; a ride to the promise land.

Couldn't agree more... The aim with .8x is to present as professional a product as possible in terms of the standards support; XHTML, CSS, WCAG, WAI etc. (enough acroynms there!). This can only help open PN up to a new userbase who care about the quality of the markup and the accessibility of the end product.

It's a huge amount of work though with checking every module template in addition to the themes. Currently only one of the base themes (ExtraLite) is fully tableless) so if you fancied helping out there's a bunch of themes need working on.... ;)

Saying that with the right theme and .750 you can reach xhtml compliance so .750 is a step in the right direction.....

-Mark

Yea I would love to be of any help at all if it improves the transition to a standards compliant and tableless future. I am going to start a project at sourceforge dedicated to tableless design themes for PostNuke, although the fact that I am having errors getting xanthia working is delaying my progression. I am still learning CSS and its application and there is a few issues which require a polish. Anyway I reckon a dedicated project allowing the distribution on exchange of brains is definetly the best path to take.

Well if you fancy a chellange then either PostNukeBlue or PostNukeSilver themes will be fun.... Due to the tables usage here they break up as soon as apply any DTD (forcing browsers from quirks mode into standards mode) so both of these need a lot of TLC....

But if your serious about helping then take one and have a go. Obviously the end product doesn't need to be a pixel perfect match but something in the style of the original.

-Mark

Don't say goodbye to tables just yet ;) I can tell you from here in the "bunkers" that browsers are not ready yet for tabless design. At the moment I am forced to use a mixture of tables and CSS to create complex themes as they are impossible to acheive without tables - yes you can get the "3 column boredom" easy enough, but try to go further and you have problems and need to muck around with irritaiting "browser hacks" which will only take you deeper into trouble.

My thoughts on this? When CSS becomes as stable and cross-browser as tables are I will use it. Until then I play with it, but always use tables for the "products" :)

And as always I wonder why, oh why they could not have allowed divs to be set "side by side" like tds - crazy...

PS In saying this, I am not telling you to cease using CSS, far from it! I use CSS for as much as possible and only use tables for the basic layout foundation, the rest of my themes are CSS.

REgards
Lobos

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-Lobos
Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

Kick me if I am wrong but I am almost certain that you can make tables standards complient...

Regards
Lobos

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-Lobos
Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

Yes, all CSS could in a couple words limit the design.

I realy enjoy CSS but the problem exists in alot of the existing (for some reason) browsers.

One major site I have noticed and actually I find loads slower now then when they used tables
www.gamespot.com

I have broadband and cannot for the life of me figure why it loads slower, but its a kickass site once loaded.

Lately theres been alot of emphasize on CSS, but again browsers are the real killers.

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Thanks
Regards
MASsIVE
Theme Labs

check http://www.post-nuke.net for a tablefree (and almost WCAG AA/Section 508 compliant) theme

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regards from germany
..::[Zikula Application Framework]::.. ..::[SEO-Blog]::.. ..::[CMS Sicherheit]::..

Of course... all valid points.... Tables aren't completely dead and will continue to be used for a number of themes until CSS becomes more standardised across browsers.

The goal though is to be able create accessable sites opening PN up to a bigger market. This means that the module output has to be right i.e. tableless unless a table is the correct markup. Then *some* tableless themes can be provided that allow for fully WCAG/WAI compliant sites.

That doesn't stop a whole mass of themes using tables from being available that can exploit tables to thier fullest too. This may be appropriate for some sites but not all.

But that's all we're really talking about; opening up PN to new users who wouldn't of otherwise considered PN an option; cleansing the produced HTML so that the output is well formed and markup used approarpriately (a table for tablular table, a list for a list of items etc.).

I don't think there's anyone that will say 'you've not got enough tables in PN .7x can we have some more'!

-Mark

Yes like most I have seen, ugly as sin LOL ...

By the way, can you get a footer to work with that layout? One that spans the entire 3 columns like the header ;) ?

Regards
Lobos

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-Lobos
Professional PHP Framework Services: Concept, Development and Deployment

Lobos,

Yes you can get a footer than spans the three column layout. A recent article about negative margins on alistapart outlines the basic methodology for getting the traditional 3 column, header and footer CMS layout going. The extralite theme in the .8x cvs uses this methodology.

There's no doubt theres a learning curve going from tables to CSS. I guess this is mostly becuase people can easily visualise a table structure.

-Mark

I guess I'm behind the times, but I'm pretty certain other people reading this thread are having the same questions I am.

I understand the basics of CSS and can edit an existing stylesheet with ease. I always assumed that CSS was limited to things like font sizes and background colours. Obviously there was more to it that I never used, but I can't seem to understand how CSS could be used to layout a webpage in the place of tables.

Anyone have a tutorial link to get me up to speed? I guess I need a refresher in web basics.

Yo 'Spire 2000'
Indeed I thought along similar lines, a few months ago, but it seems my lengthy ignorance to CSS was unjustified; as it is indeed capable of laying out the design of websites in a way which is arguably superior to that of tables and most definetly has the potential to replace tables.

Some Links.
http://www.csscreato…ion2/pagelayout.php
http://css.maxdesign…al/tutorial0916.htm
http://css.maxdesign…al/tutorial0816.htm

The links are all pretty self explatory innit. The first one is a CSS layout generator, and the other two the best tutorials I have read on the subject, on 2 column and 3 column layouts respectively.