Hi.
Not sure if this the right forum, but does anybody know when Postnuke 0.8 will be released?

/Mats

No specific release date yet but the next milestone (MS2) is now fairly close as we're close to completing all of the requirements for this release. See the .8x development cycle Wiki page for more info.

You can also try it out for yourself using a SVN snapshot or take a look at a current demo.

-Mark



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Ok, I will definitely have a look at it. Are we talking several months before a final release can be done?
/Mats

That seems like a reasonable estimate at this stage.

-Mark

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I think it's high time to move to another CMS. I'm waiting for .8 at least 3 years.

And again I/we got new promises. But - althought old postnuke.com is gone - I remember full story of your promises. Just few examples (I will use only those >2 years old)?
1. Release announcement of 0.75: 25 march 2004 - (http://news.postnuke.com/Article2573.html):
"The purpose of this release is to finish off the .7x series of PostNuke. Since the release of .726, there have been many enhancements made to the existing .7x PostNuke development, and the decision has been taken to provide these enhancements in a final release before PostNuke .8." .
2. 2 weeks before 0.75 was released on 11 march 2004 "Postnuke .8 - A Preview" (http://news.postnuke.com/Article2565.html): "The ultimate question remains unanswered: When will .8 be released? pnCore-Team manager Larsneo expects a milestone release in 6-8 weeks. That release will definitely not be ready for productive use and will not feature any update routines. Nevertheless it will enable module developers to test the functionality of they modules under the new enviroment before a first release candidate is ready. ".
3. My favourite: 8 June 2003 in article "PostNuke Is Alive and Well" - (http://news.postnuke.com/Article2428.html): "we are working very hard on getting the .8 release out by the end of summer"

In the article "Never ending development - PN .8" on polish support site (http://www.post-nuke…ile=article&sid=963) I suggested that maybe you plan to deliver 0.8 on third anniversary of Adam Baum death - 16 June 2005. Now it looks to be more likely 16 June 2007. Or maybe 2010.

Do you really plan to deliver 0.8 ever? Shall we take your promises seriously?

Over time, i've seen a lot of these posts and I started a little mental list titled "What's the rush?" .. here we go:

1) I've got a hot date and I want to show off my CMS
2) I haven't had a date in months/years and have not a f*cking better thing to do with my time than piss and moan for faster free sh*t
3) I have a baboon's heart and very little time to live.
4) I'm addicted to "new".
5) I can't wait to find out how many modules won't work with it.
6) I'm agoraphobic and my TV is broken
7) My cat pees in my shoe every day that .8 is delayed
8) .762 makes me hum the theme to the A-Team while my eyebrow twitches
9) I've printed all of the code to use as napkins and I'm almost out.
10) Badgers.

I have been to the pnMeeting last weekend and could experience several core developers for the first time, and my already longlasting trust into pn.8 development (I'm using PN since the end of 2001 and have experienced all excuses first hand) was deeply strengthened. I think the feature-set that was planned for .8 in 2001-2003 is already surpassed by far by the current version.762 .

Just last year several really big concepts that didn't exist before were added to the .8 feature plan. There was no Ajax in 2003 and now it is already implemented with core support in .8. Also last year the object persistence layer (DBUtil) and component architecture was added to .8 which changes the way modules can be created to something in the style of ruby-on-rails. That is something that to my knowledge no other comparable open source PHP content management system is able to offer.

The german PN foundation is also quite well equipped monetarily and might be able to sponsor development to some extend in the future.

These are some of the reasons why I believe that we have chosen the right system to use and code for and that it will not die anytime soon but quite contrarily will really take off once the .8 benefits become visible to the admins and developers while other CMS systems are still buried in security issues and are just starting to think about changing their underlying structure.

Hey InvalidResponse,
Do I understand you are one of the members of project team?
It's very hard and tough to say: we made clasical mistake in project management - scope has to be froozen at certain moment. But we forgot and we have continous development last 3 years with misleading announcements.

It's better to say: all people who are asking are stupid. Great.

SzybkiStefan
Stupid User of PN
(one of those who still hopes that PN will be delivered ever, others already moved to another CMSes)

PS. By the way: I didn't wrote "My cat pees in my shoe every day that .8 is delayed". My post is only a set of lies from project team from taken from official announcements.



edited by: SzybkiStefanPL, Aug 15, 2006 - 12:15 PM

I think it's a bit harsh to call previous statements 'lies'. Each statement was made in good faith at the time. Yes those statements may have been since proved wrong and mis-judged but no one was trying to mislead anyone and certainly not lie.

Everyone involved in the development team severely underestimated the amount of work that was needed to bring the postnuke codebase up to a reasonable standard. During the time that work has been going on large chunks of that code has been released in the form of .750 and .760.

In reality, and hindsight, the version numbers should have been re-worked so that the .7x -> .8x jump was not as big as it has been. However hindsight is a wonderful thing - 20/20 in its clarity.

But the code that is there now is shaping up nicely and is starting to look like a really good, solid product.

-Mark

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no, i'm not.


I suppose so.. I've been "waiting" just as long.. I just don't share the level of "anticipation".. if that's what we're going to call it. the list is a joke, a hypothetical list of why users get so bent out of shape about release schedules.

these kinds of posts do nothing for their moral or motivation mind you.. I imagine on their side of the fence it builds a certain amount of disdain for the community they support.. I imagine a lot though

Sorry for "lies" - is was caused by my poor English.

But comming back to the topic: you (come wrore about it too) suggested that maybe versions can be re-numbered. It's OK. I'd like to make it clear - it is not so important for me: whether version will be called 0.8 or 2006. I would like to ask about the future of PN.

I designed quite big cooperation module for genealogists. I made it 2 years ago. But I got infomation that .8 with new API will come soon. And I was waiting. What do you suggest: what shall I do now? Wait another half a year (will it be half a year?) or rather choose another solution?

Thanks for clarifying the use of english - I know it's difficult to post on a forum in your non-native language. You're doing far better than I could in any other language.

The future of PN, at least from my perspective, is bright - the .8x codebase is now at the point where we can be confident that a release will happen soon. As indicated earlier i'd put the release 'several months' away. The codebase meets all of the modern current standards and guidelines (XHTML strict, CSS, wcag etc.) and makes use of all the appropriate technoligies (e.g. Ajax)

As to what you should do... I can't make that decision for you but in your position i'd be tempted to look at .8 Milestone 2 once released as an indicator of what PN .8x will be like when it reaches it final release state and then make your decision from there.

-Mark

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I have no doubt that new version will be great and much better then all existing CMS. But, comming back to original topic of our discussion - the only thing is how much time we/I need to wait for it.

I can only seconds Mark's comments. Before abandoning PN, check out the state it's currently in (preferrably after MS2). It offers you as a module author *lots* of interesting features which are designed to make your life easier (and will allow you to do support more features with less code).

For some info on this, check out the Wiki, specifically http://community.pos…com/Wiki-DbUtil.htm ... this approach allowed us to save 40% of the code of the Quotes module while adding more features.

Greetings
R

With regard to timescales see my reply to this earlier comment





-Mark


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Last question. As said: my English is poor.
What 'several' means:
- 2-3 months
- 5 months
- a bit less than 10 months

The dictionary definition of several is a number greater than 2 or 3 but less than 'many'. :)

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From what I heard about the state of development I expect to see a release of .8 Milestone 2 within the next 1-2 months (which will be the time everyone should start testing and adapting modules for it) and .8 final in about 6-8 months.

Then again I'm not a core dev and could be a little off. But who cares, .762 works for now and doesn't seem to have any security issues.

If it's a question, here is an answer: it is important for developers. It is significant difference between API in 762 and 0.8. Am I right?
If it's really ~8 months to the final release then it is reasonable to develope module with old/current API and then modify it with new API. If it's 2-3 months it is better to wait. That's why I was asking about meaning of word "several".

We'd all like to see PostNuke .8 final either released or close to it by the end of the year. However, there are no guarantees of this, as has been said many times before.

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there are additions.. they're not going to change the API without adding backwards compatibility. Here's a tip: install the v4blib and use the dbUtil, the end result should be fully compatible with the .8 series. Here's another tip: why don't you try installing your module on the .8 codebase and fix the incompatibilities? have you tried this? if your big concern is about compatibility, then you should be working off of the MS releases.. personally, i found everything to work fine except for a change in the permissions plugin.

banana,
devin

Hammerhead: thanks for helpful info.

InvalidResponse: This is very valuable tip. Thanks.

pnAPI and pnRender are the official way to code in .762 and will be the same in .8.
If you want to save time and code and develop faster, take the DBUtil and other v4blibs since they will be included in .8.
What will change is i.e. the transition from the Topics module to the Categories.
There's also a new Workflow system coming up and supposed to be fully operable with .8 MS2, so that will be the point when developers will have access to the full .8 dev platform.

I guess that Postnuke is the right choise of a C3MS... i wait all the time that be needed while study the Core code and get level to be a member of Development Team...

All the things that must be considered to develop that gigantic and powerfull CMS, take time to clarify and order the code... i undestand and want to develop too..

it will be in a time...

--
- Mateo T. -
Mis principios... son mis fines

Do you think is it still valid? Do you plan to release at least new development update?

Thanks in advance for any info.

Final probably won't happen this year, but MS3 is due shortly. Depending on the progress in the upgrade of older PN versions, RC1 will be released.

Personally I am on top of the Dev Update, will be released this week.

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I have a milestone 2 somewhere, can I just overwrite everything? I'm happy to help, but I don't have the time to read all the readme files [if there are any]

Thx in advance

You could try that.

• Backup codebase and DB
• delete all your files
• copy latest SVN export in place
• set correct file permissions on pnTemp dirs and empty cached / compiled dirs
• edit the new config/config.php to read your current settings, i.e. all the

  Code

  $PNConfig['DBInfo']['default']
  lines

Then first run upgrade.php before invoking anything. This should work as expected, but no guarantees of course...

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Guys,
It's not funny at all. Never ending promisses. Can anybody guarantee that PN 0.8 will appear before Feb 15?

SzybkiStefanPL, it will be released within 8 days lolz... Jk
I read the entire topic and you kept repeating the same question over and over again. There isn't anything wrong with that but to just clarify and restate what was mentioned by many of the Dev's. It will be released within several months. Meaning 2-3 months. But, since the starting of this topic. It's been 4 months, which is indicated hypothetically the next release will be soon. (or it should be soon) ;)

Also, since you are too curious about API compliant and creating modules; a solution was given already for that in one of the above posts. So, you don't have to wait for the .8 release and can start working on your project.





edited by: Bad_Dude, Jan 03, 2007 - 04:26 AM

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My Work.....

No.

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What promise did I make with my post that I could not keep (since you are quoting it)?

You can easily start testing your module under the .8 API using a latest snapshot. Maybe registering at the postnuke-commits mailinglist will prove that everybody is working hard, and from the changes made you can easily see that most changes made to the code are tuning, and not adding new functionality.

As Hammerhead said: no guarantees.



edited by: Teb, Jan 03, 2007 - 09:14 AM

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There is a question: how many years I/anybody who provides reasonable portal can wait for the next version? For whatever stupid reason after posts in August I thoughth that we will have 0.8 before the end of year. I even wrote special article about this great news to polish PN site.

And what? Nothing. My module is ready and as said I can now test my module. Maybe 2 months, maybe 2 years. No quarantees.

Guys, Have you realised that other projects (like e.g. Joomla) provides reasonable documenation, new version are delivered and new modules are comming almost every day. Why I'm still here (obvious question)? Because I created my site on PN and I love this system. But I do not understand how any project can be so badly organised.

You can tell me - as in fact Hammerhead did - shut up! And finally I'll do and switch to another CMS (as many others already did).

Are you really sure that you do good job?

As you wish buddy, I wouldn't even rush and force the Dev's to release something incomplete because facing those problems further down the line is worse than waiting for a complete system which is more secure.

If you like Joomla then switch, no one is stopping you...


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-James

My Work.....

Guess the point is said and taken, no need to continue this endless discussion. Everyone is working hard and progression can be followed by following the SVN commits.

Is your module .8 only? Yep then wait. There exists no other OS CMS that can guarantee anything.

If you love PN, try adding your efforts into it. Help us (the community) by debugging the latest .8, any help is appreciated. Jump in if you see a "help wanted" of "testers wanted" scream from the Devs. That's what I do, and is all I can do.

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How many years are you using PN? I remember that 0.723 was planned to be the last one bef 0.8, then we had small update 0.726 and again the last bef 0.8 - 0.75, and then for whatever reason 4 other versions 76-764. I'm waiting for new quality (called 0.8) already 3 years. My english is too poor to understand why you used "rush" and "force" in this situation.



And others too. The last one will stwitch the light.

Again: are you really sure that you do good job?

You have to realize that the development team of .723 simply wasn't the same group of people as there is now. What we've had since then is a lot of work to bring the level of functionality up to what's required by a modern CMS and a few releases to introduce some of that technology as early as possible.

I'd consider the following - .75 is about 20% of .8x code, .76 is about 40% if .8x code so while a full .8x release isn't available some of what forms .8x is already there (and thus is stable and tested). I've said already that I believe .72x -> .8x would have been too much of a single jump.

'Are we doing a good job?' you ask? I don't know, thats for others to decide...but what I can state with absolute certainty is that everyone is working as hard as they can and as much as time allows.

-Mark

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Teb,
You are right that endless discussion which looks like: "when?" "we don't know, maybe in 2 months, maybe in 2 years" has no sense at all.

I expected a bit more out-of-box thinking from your (meaning PN team) site. Example: if you cannot close big scope of 0.8 maybe it would be good to cut-out less critical part (I don't know, maybe support for Oracle) and to deliver new consistent API with Xantia in predictable time.

I'm absolutely sure that most of people will feel much better with very specific calendar. e.g.:
- Jan 2006 - Xantia
- AUg 2006 - new API
- Dez 2006 - documentation
- Jun 2007 - Oracle support

Not too many people are happy with never ending development with approach "it's great because we have still a lot of commits at SVN". Plenty of PN users do not understand what SVN stands for. That's why they have choosen postnuke: they are not able to clue-up good site with stand-alone components. They just want to run a site in 5 minutes, maybe few hours.

We've already taken that approach - you're reading too much into a number....

I can't remember the dates of release so i'll post version numbers instead

0.75 - Xanthia, pnRender
0.76 - System modules templated and fully API compliant
Ajax enhancement pack - Ajax functionality

If we'd named .75 to .8, .76 to .9 and .8 to 1.0 then would we be having this same discussion? What I'm getting at is this discussion about the functionality or simply the version number?

-Mark

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Visit My homepage and Zikula themes.

I think the biggest mistake / confusion is version numbering, and somewhat relates to your scope-argument. This discussion would probably not have taken place if .75 was called .8 (templated output available for core, themes and modules), and .76x was called .9x (with updated API) and now we are waiting voor 1.0 (framework splitted from extensions and Database abstraction layer).

At this moment I only see "I am waiting for .8 for 3 years". Somewhere I read a nice summary (I thought written by user "Come") of what has been changed from .6 to .76 already. It's becoming a 'number' issue.

I think I rather see the question "I have got this neat module and want it to work with PostNuke, but your API should be updated, when can I expect that?". Again, is your module pnApi compliant? Then it should work under both .76x as .8. Did you make use of the new Object Library? Then it is only .8 compatible. And you have to wait...

Don't get me wrong, I know that waiting is annoying, and not having a deadline is even more annoying. But looking at a DevTeam working almost every day on the codebase in their free spare time, I would never want to even speak of deadlines. Broken deadlines are called "lies", so why give them in my humble opinion. The calendar is something for project management where deadlines are common or for commercial purposes. But I am not a developer, I just try to communicate the progress back to the community and help out debugging and testing where I can.

Reason why I pointed YOU to SVN is because YOU understand what it is (since you are e module author, you understand the content of those mails). For all other people, I personally am writing the Development Updates every three weeks. No hard knowledge required, and anyone can see what has been done.

And that is currently still possible, and will be still possible in the future AFAIK. I do know that a lot of users are quite happy with the current codebase (as long as it works fast, stable and secure, why upgrade), and that developers / theme authors are happy with the both .7 and .8 framework.

I am sorry if you did not get an answer to your questions, and if we did not fullfill your expectations. We all do what we can, in all faith to have the best project management that both fullfills the needs of the community, as the capacities and time schedule of the developers. Guess it is hard to make everybody happy, but we all (including the Dev Team) intend to.

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Cool... typing for twenty minutes... and Mark beats me with the same argument. I have to shorten my replies here...

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It is true to say that .8 has been in development 3 years now yes. What it's not true to say is that in that time .7x hasn't advanced at all. As has already been mentioned, in the past three years we've seen the introduction of Xanthia and pnRender. This has allowed modules like Pagesetter and pnForum to be introduced and become widespread. Many site administrators (myself included) can't imagine running a site without pnRendered modules now.

.8 technology has slowly been introduced into the .7x branch, keeping the current codebase fresh and current and allowing third party developers to develop .8 compatible modules ahead of release time. The perception is that PostNuke isn't progressing because we aren't at version .9 or 1.0 now, but with the technologies currently in .8 I think PostNuke is some distance ahead of the competition, Joomla, Drupal etc are still some way from matching .8 in terms of the core technologies.

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Mark, Teb,

Thanks for prompt answer. After those messages I see that this could be only communication issue. But - again and again - a lot of people do not understand too and they are confused at similar level like me.
And they are already e.g. Joomla users because there everything is clear, documented etc.
Security? Who cares about security at small schol site?

Guess that that school site should be our audience, but the ICT manager who chooses the CMS is _not_ our target audience. Too bad, true, but PostNuke is not just some paging or blogging CMS. It's a framework, C3MS, and so on. Any PN user with good sense for security and extendibility would not leave PostNuke IMHO.

We agree then I guess. Hope you are one of those users with faith in this project. At least I am and will stay.

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Everybody else that is on the same server will definitely care about security when the one site on the server gets hacked due to a lack of security and brings them all down. You don't have to be a large corporation or hugely popular site to get hacked -- once a hole is found, hackers will search for any and all sites with that hole. They don't care how little the site is, it's an opportunity into a possibly much larger attack...

Our target market isn't the webmaster of a small school site. That's not to say that a webmaster of a small community site can't make a good site with PostNuke, or even that it's a bad idea, because you could use PostNuke for exactly that application. However, one of the reasons that Mambo/Joomla is so big is because it seems perfect for the webmaster of a small site due to the vast array of features and the fact it looks nice.

Meanwhile, larger unique sites, which have to be the target of a Framework like PostNuke .8, care very much about security and the technologies behind the core. That's PostNuke's strength, the core code is fast, secure and feature complete and allows for rapid development of new code that uses the system. Development with PostNuke is easy, contrary to what I've seen of other CMS systems, especially PHPNuke. The advantage of this is that once the userbase of .8 is established, new features and modules should appear thick and fast.

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Hmm Tested the latest development release and found few errors in one of the themes. I will report sometimes tomorrow.

Overall, it looks great and runs much faster for some reason... (I ran it using xampp)..

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My Work.....

I too look forward to 0.8 -- because 0.764 is getting confusing. Some things you can template, others you cannot. -- for example, how can I template the searchblock in the header of the pnDefault theme in 0.764??

http://community.postnuke.com/module-Forum-viewtopic-topic-51447-start-0.htm#pid219522
http://community.postnuke.com/module-Forum-viewtopic-topic-51454-start-0.htm#pid219563

Please do not double post questions. Answer is in the second thread.

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Is MS3 upcoming? :)

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Yes, but precisely when is still unknown - we're applying a number of bug fixes at this stage to stabilise the core.

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When you wrote it in Aug 2006 somebody could understand it as and of 2006. Now we can be rather sure that this not 2007 too. In such a case I would like to ask whether you thought about 2008, 2009 or maybe even later?